[0.86][Suggestion] Outposts need defenders

This is certainly one way you could go with them. I like the current method, it is simple and elegant. Outposts allow resource gathering without city spam. The drawback is that they are difficult to defend and enable you enemy to use guerrilla warfare on you. The choice between cities and outposts is a complicated one. 

it all depends on what they want to do with cities

IF (like i d like) they put heavy penalties for city spamming then i could go with defenders into outposts

if not i dont really wanna defend all these cities AND all the outposts too

I'm ok with current system.  

I would like to see outpost upgrades. e.g., small garrison, strong garrison, defensive gargoyles (or whatever). You could even add a wizards tower for that lone wizard working on new spells (research bonus ?)

It has to be simple and not get too involved but I would certainly like the outpost to have some chance of resisting foreign invasion.

 

Given the number of outposts seen in a given game in its current state, I think adding more things "to do" with outposts would greatly increase user fatigue while not adding any more depth or fun to the game.  As it is you can "upgrade your outpost's defense" by putting units in it.  I don't think that for what outposts are supposed to me (resource grabbers) that it needs to be any more complex than that.

 

However, the fact remains that defending an outpost has no significant bonuses for the defenders. Your army size is a limiting factor for how many units you can stack on an outpost (just like on any other tile in the environment) and there are no distinct bonuses for the defenders (just like any other environmental tile).

 

Sure, adding more upgrades to outposts runs the risk of creating a GalCivII type "starbase" system, where the maintenance and upgrading of starbases eventually got tedious. By contrast, the current system makes them little more than resource grabbers with absolutely NO defenses.

 

Perhaps a static bonus to defending units would be sufficient? Or a base level of "militia" that automatically spawn? No user fatigue possibilities in those two choices. 

Heres some ideas:

Make new city improvements that affect attached outposts. Could be "Advanced Barracks" (or some other name), and these barracks would give your city some minor benefit and it could also "Add 2 defenders" to any attached outpost. Buildings could also pass the cities defensive bonuses or militia count to their outposts.

Even the current buildings like walls or barracks could give new benefits to outposts attached to a city.

Outposts could reduce stationed units upkeep slightly. If this upkeep reducing mechanic is introduced, cities should reduce upkeep by a lot more than outposts.

Like it was said in the thread I would like it if at least outposts gave some defending bonuses to stationed units.

i think a system like star bases in galatic civilization 2 would be nice. where you could upgrade them to increase defenses, extracting ability from resources, and other abilities.

What we need are forts.

While outposts are mainly for resource gathering, one of the problems I have playing the AI is it's superhuman ability to control like 200 unit groups around the map. It's almost impossible to defend all my borders even while I am basically taking each city as fast as i can get there. Some militia upgrades on outposts would be nice so that thy can be defended, but what I really want to see is a an upgrade that expands the center part out to a 3x3 that acts like a city so I can place outpost strategically to defend points and resources.

 

I played my first game of the beta last night, and I agree that outposts need to be a little bit more robust.  I'm not as concerned with user fatigue as others have mentioned above.  Some small tweeks could make the outpost much more useful without add any extra demands on the player.

 

In fact I was hoping that the "Fortification" tech upgrade would turn my outposts, or allow me to turn the outpost, into forts--granting them some sort of garsonning or defense bonus.  Having lurked on the boards for a while, it appears that Caravans were almost universally dispised.  Not sure about everyone's reason for hating them, but in War of Magic I couldn't stand the fact that there was no way to have guard escorts for the caravans.  They were completely vulnerable all the time, and now outposts have a similar flaw.  It is somewhat better since the outpost are stationary and you can at least plant armies on them, but that army 1) doesn't get a defense bonus, 2) still appears on the game world, and 3) is still listed as an active unit on the quick bar down the left side of the screen.  That third issue makes it difficult for me to efficiently manage the units I have exploring or fighting, since it is now cluittered with units that are just babysitting.

 

I'd suggest somekind of upgrades, maybe just from "outpost" to "fort".  Outposts allow for garrison of troops, forts allow garrison and defense bonus.  I don't think that outposts should get free militias like the cities.  However, I'd like to see the zone of protection (the area inclued within the walls of the outpost or fort) to include resource improvements immediately adjacent to the structure.  That gives the player a choice when facing an area with multiple resources, either build immediately next to a resouce providing more security, or build a little further away so you can cover more resources with each outpost.  Even if an outpost could cover two and still be adjacent to one, the player would have to decide which resource is more valuable to his or her game.

 

I agree with this, BUT, I do wish structures, at least the Outposts themselves, had a token HP/Attack value. Outposts can be assumed to be manned. An empty building out in the wilderness doesn't extend influence.

 

To defend them against any real enemy, you'd have to garrison troops there. But I don't think a pack of scouts or a lone bear cub should just be able to effortlessly walk over the tile and destroy it.

And while we are on this topic, is there a way for trading to create roads to the outposts as well as between the player cities?

Research economics.

I really would like to see the GalCivII starbase system adapted to Elemental outposts.  As long as they were balanced properly and costs increased  as the power of the outposts grew you'd have a great & flexible system for expanding trade, military power projection, etc.  It would be more to balance, but would be a great addition.  The current outpost system for resources gathering makes a great foundation for just such an addition.  

My idea:

Keep outposts as is, and make an upgrade for these outposts. These "forts" would add millitia or bonusses and act like a town in means of the garrison. Of course forts will need an upkeep, or they will be spamed. And we don't want that, do we? This will help the turtle, read few city players. Give forts a limitation like cities have. Only allow forts with a distance of 8 sqaures or more. This way, forts have two limitations against spamming. Maybe it would be nice to give them a zone of 5x5 instead of the 3x3 for the limitations. Kohan: immortal sovereign had forts like these, and they worked great! Well, forts didn't have a maximum distants, but they did have an upkeep. Make the upgrade cost time, in this way, you can't aggressively place forts. In kohans expansion: Ahriman's gift, these forts where upgradeble. But they took time. I would really love if Derek would look into Kohan for ideas, preverable Ahriman's gift, and not Kings of war.

P.S. Kohan did have millitia that was good, but requered that time to regain lost troops. With outposts it was one regiment and with forts it where two. But this is hard to translate to Elemental... Oh wel, maybe not that hard. Six units at an outpost and twelve at an fort (the upgraded version with larger upkeep).

I'd like to see upgradeable outposts which have better defenders, unlocked with techs on the military tree.  Outpost militia should spawn whenever a unit enters their ZOC.

If they give us fortifiable outposts I'll abuse the hell out of it.  Please don't make me.

If I wanted starbases, I'd play GalCiv 2. If there's an upgrade to outposts, it should be a low player input thing. Focus of the game shouldn't be in microing outposts.

I think outposts are fine as is.

Sure, there could be more stuff to be done with them ... but really, development time is sorely needed in other aspects of the game. Better outposts would only be fluff, imho.

Well, some upgrade options would be nice, not as in galciv but tech related as it stands now, with a side tech adding some bonus to the defenders, say kingdom hedgerow or whereabouts and other providing a small garrison, as long as this are optional side techs, it should be ok

No

The guard command is pointless unless your guarding a single tile, we need a more effective way to control territory vs an AI that can control hundreds of unit groups. At the least outposts/guarding should have zone of control of 1. In a large map humans will always slip up.

Well yea, if we had a single upgrade to add 1 militia to each outpost, that would be fine (I guess) as they are not production centers ...

 

The main thing, though, is to be able to garrison outposts methinks. having my outpost garrisons clutter up the unit screen is annoying

(but as I said, other things are more important)

"The Beacon!  The Beacon is lit! Gondor calls for aid!"

"And Rohan shall answer."

LOTR:ROTK

Aside from having some of the most beautiful music ever, IMO, this scene is just so epic and sort of how I would love to see outposts used:

As border posts and strongpoints that can serve as:

1) rally points for assembling armies (ala GC2)

2) a FOW counter that lets me watch for enemy encroachment and wandering monsters

3) a safe place for my troops to rest and/or upgrade and that provides a defensive bonus to garrisoned units

 

 

 

  

What would the single militia actually accompish? Have you played Demigod? In Demigod it's better not to get more troops at certain points of the game because they would just be serving the enemy experience points.

That said, maybe some tech unlocking a defensive bonus for units in outposts, etc. wouldn't be bad. Although in a way it's already implemented: function of outposts is to extend your borders and units within your borders get bonuses. The actual outpost square isn't any better than plain terrain, though. And I don't consider better outposts simply fluff, although there's an inaccurate quote in reply #21 that I would have said so. That was Tasunke.