[Feedback] Fireball Spell

Fireball has to be used by a Fire Mage that is specifically leveled to use that spell. You need a very high Initiative to make it worth the cost and still relevant during a battle. I can cast mine in the first round with a level 7 mage.

yeah i still dont get how ppl dont understand fireball

i did a deadly quest with packs of figures with 100+ hp and high defense/resist and normal casts would cut 1 figure top with fireball nearly wiped the whole stack

if fireball is not to use it is cause of its OPnes...

Exactly my point.  Fireball wasn't broken.  The Level Up traits that allow a mage to cast a fireball on first turn are what's broken.  The first turn +10 to Initiative on first round should be purged from the game.  It's too much on top of all the other ways initiative can be increased.  Whether a mage uses that mega-initiative to cast Fireball or some other back-to-back damage spells, it STILL is overpowered.

I agree with the sentiments above.  Its not fireball that is overpowered nor is it underpowered.  Used by a non initiaitive boosted character in the right circumstances, can be very useful, but not the only choice.

I agree that the +10 (50% bonus on base initiative) is way too high

I don't think Impulsive should be removed. I think intelligence should act as the "initiative" for spell casting.

The way to do this is to have every point of initiative act as a fraction of initiative Intelligence/Initiative.

In this way ... initiative still produces turn order, but intelligence will determine how many spells are cast during a single turn.

Examples below:

low initiative but high intelligence ... doesn't get first  strike, but can cast multiple spells when its turn has come.

high initiative low intelligence ... its turn comes up a lot, but can only cast a basic (1-turn) spell with its high initiative bonuses.

high initiative high intelligence ... plays exactly the same as it does now. Only it takes more intelligence to earn it.

low initiative and low intelligence ... completely useless as a caster.

yeah tehre has to be a way to increas initiative a lot

whatever of the above is ok but if the caster REALLY need to wait 3 turns while getting 2 attacks from opponents archer THEN fireball would be useless

also now there is a not fotm imo: pandemonium

its very very good spell right now, ofc it doesnt wipe an army but it half locks it, that cause it spam slow and debuffs to everyone and is instant

quite good after the last patch even if ofc instant fireball>pand i think normal fireball< 2 pand

It should just be made a Path of the Assassin Trait with a level 7 Requirement. No reason to give it to mages though. 

Furthermore,

I think there should be no restriction on hitting one's own dudes with fireball.  I can think of lots of situations where I care about killing the enemy more than not killing my meat-shields.

-tid242

The biggest problem I see with using Intelligence as "Initiative" for casters is that there are not really pure casters in the game.  How do you mix them?  How do you know whether to use Int or Init for a unit?

@ Aerion I don't really see this as an issue. You can choose to make a pure caster if you wish and I have done so in several playthroughs.

I certainly do not like that initiative determines casting speed, but that is mostly due to being forced to equip items that make no sense (such as a dagger) to improve my overall damage. I especially dislike that fireball and blizzard were nerfed purely due to a trait that was already indicated as being the problem, instead of removing that trait from spellcasters. Which ironically did not even fix the spell! You can still cast it on the first turn with this trait >.>

I think we can say that being able to spec a fire mage is a good gameplay feature, but how we have to do it is distasteful. There needs to be staves, magical items, and well scaled traits that bring a fire mage to its full potential. Impulsive doesn't make sense as a Path of the Mage trait. 

To be a good at spell casting, I shouldn't need to focus my caster on getting high initiative! That's not an intuitive game mechanic.

This

I agree with this.

I have played games with high initiative and  impulsive spell casters and in these games the area effect spells ruled and would finish most battles at the start.

But when I decided to play without impulsive and using the mage equipment fights would finish before fireball was cast or very few targets left.  I have lost a fight or two this way because I clicked to fireball instead of firebolt and could not cancel.

In a game where my sovereign didn't get fire II I tried the Incineration staff to give him a ranged attack when he didn't want to waste mana.  I found the initiative penalty not worth the minor damage it would do.  Scaling it my int or fire shards would be good but only for heroes, groups of mages already do enough damage with them.   

Agree with Nakisisa.  Before the latest initiative nerf to bows, I used to like to give my casters a bow so they could do some small amount of ranged damage when I didn't want them to burn mana.   But now with the the archery initiative nerf AND the current state of Endless Mana (tm) the hit on initiative is too high and my caster's never want for mana to burn.

I think the current character progression hurts mages, because without being able to select evoker at level 1 and the path of the mage at level 2 the damage is too low at level 1 - 3 and suddenly at level 4 the mage works. It would be better to replace the professions with the paths to give heroes useful damage spells at level 1 - 3 and access to path specific talents.

maybe we have to wait when all the definitive spells are in game

also there were many discussions about it and dunno why ppl seemed to not be full convinced of having dmg spell for each school low lvl

right now imo fire is working nearly good

water and air so and so, they are good support spells imo but early you cant win fights with only haste slow

water elemental is weak (maybe a bug? )

death is so and so early, useful but cant work alone

life is also good support like it should be but not enough until lvl 3

earth is quite good at lvl 3 but b4 its not so good

Is Contagion Death III + Air I?

Assuming it has not changed from 0.77 (haven't played Empire recently) then it is Death II + Air II.

ah k

My opinions:

• I don't like the idea that if you are building a mage character that you are forced to take initiative or else not use AE spells.  (see original poster's comments).  Having to flame dart 3 stacks instead of fireballing seems silly.
• I agree that friendly fire should be in play.
• I do like the idea that intel should contribute to casting speed as well as initiative.  Initiative as a pure stat on it's own is overpowered. 

A round is different than a turn. Currently the UI does not make this clear to the user. A round is a set amount of time. A unit can have many turns in one round. Let's take advantage of this.

I am starting to agree about need a new mechanic for spells. An arcane stat could be used to determine how long it takes to cast a spell. This would be a simple addition. 0 point of arcane means that all spells take a default of 2 rounds to cast. 1 points halves the casting time, rounded to your disadvantage. 2 points cuts casting times by one third and so on. The first point would be in the common pool. The second would be part of the Path of the Mage and the rest would be unlocked every 3 levels from level 4, where you get Path of the Mage.

Spells like Fireball would start at 3 rounds to cast. Better spells would follow suit.

Level 1 heroes need 2 rounds to cast any normal spell. This would prevent noob mages from stopping Fireball at a whim.

Level 2-3 heroes need only 1 round to cast any normal spell.

Level 4-7 heroes can cast any normal spell instantly.

Level 7-10 heroes can cast Fireball instantly.

In this system Initiative is useless because no matter how many turn a mage gets in a round, he would have to wait until the next round to cast the spell. Mage are greatly rewarded for specializing in magic and mundane heroes will not be able to compete. It allows for cross-class units to be able to use magic, but not overpower devoted mages. It would also open up the possibility for mid level and high level units to cast a fire spell that allowed them to shoot a series of 4 fire darts on the next 4 turns.

I like this idea. I did not know that rounds were already explicitly defined.

Good job!

Perhaps you should make a new thread proposing the above idea?

Rather than putting in some new stat/mechanic, how about using Spell Mastery for determining spell casting time? What is it that Spell Mastery does currently, again?

That would give more power to increasing this stat as well as Intelligence. It would also encourage selecting stats that boost Spell Mastery.