[.85][Balance] Wildlands guardians

I'm glad that the wildlands guardians are hard, as it gives you something to work on.  However, from a balance perspective, the whole affair is broken.  When I managed to get a clean, bug/exploit free battle in, It took 4 armies to take down the swamplands guardian.  Any one of those stacks could have wiped any other player off the map - I know this because I had, moments ago, used one of those armies to steamroll the #1 player who was at double my score, catapulting me from last place to a very comfortable first place.  My reward for spending 40 turns shoring up my forces and focusing on the guardian instead of killing off players?

 

- a gold mine

- a water shrine

- about 5 recruitment sites that it said I couldn't use because I was kingdom

- a 10% production boost and +3 constitution for new recruits in a city of my choice

- a year's supply of Turtle Wax and Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat!

 

Actually, the Rice-A-Roni might have made it worth it.

 

Short version is, there is a MASSIVE opportunity cost involved in taking over the wildlands that is not reflected in the payoff.  Dollar for dollar and turn for turn, I'd be better off just taking enemy holdings and using them as buffers in case the beasts get a bit aggressive.  I love the idea of reclaiming and restoring the wildlands, but it feels like the kind of thing that you can really only do once you no longer really need to do it.  If you have the time and resources to build up the armies needed to kill a guardian and nobody can step to you in the meantime, then you've pretty much already won, and you're just going through the motions.    

3,220 views 6 replies
Reply #1 Top

well game is not fully balanced yet

 

i think the idea should be when the war is in balance and you cant break through those bonuses might help

 

 

 

Reply #2 Top

It would probably make no sense from the lore perspective, but it would be great if the wildlands get bigger in act II and III to threaten all players. They would work like the random encounter in MOO that attacks the players later in the game.

Reply #3 Top

I'd love to see them encroach.  Kind of like the way you had to actively fight (or cater to) the planet in SMAC, or the way that hell crept in to force the tension in Fall from Heaven. 

Reply #4 Top

I was actually thinking exactly that when playing Beta 1 yesterday - I really wanted the wilds to be a bit more aggressive.  To be honest, I felt like the wilds stuff was just waiting there for me to farm it for most of the game.  I think the complete lack of critters intruding into your domain may be a bit overly safe.  I remember noticing at some point (slightly alarmed) that there was a ginormous drake army around five squares from my capital.  I then realized that it was doing nothing, and I ignored it for a while until it was convenient to bring my Hero of Doom back to deal with it.  I think it would make a lot of sense in middle to late game for some monster armies to spawn that will actually attack your cities - it would make it a lot harder to run full econ and not bother defending cities.

Reply #5 Top

I think the bigger problem is the fact that you could so easily take out the opponents when they were supposed to be stronger then you. If that was significantly more challenging, then it would be a different circumstance, where taking 40 turns to give you some perks that might give you the advantage you need makes more sense.

Reply #6 Top

Two potential things that could help with that:

1. We need more/better defender advantage.  I know that there are a lot of mechanisms already intended to create this, but in my Beta 1 games it didn't feel like any of them were particularly effective (in the hands of the AI).  The effect of this is to make on-the-fly counterattacks with your stack of doom the easiest way to respond to aggression, and means that you don't really need to prepare much to take a city.  Part of that problem may just be the mismatch between champion strength and regular army strength - this may have changed in Beta 2, it sounds like it may be harder to get champions up to the point where they are a stack of doom entirely on their own, and that's largely where I found the defender's advantage breaking down (turn 1, walk up to their archers, kill one stack.  turn 2, kill another stack of archers.  Watch as they flail ineffectually without hitting your champion with >100 dodge, and then get killed by the counterattack.  turn 3, kill another stack...)  That's a very delicate balance, since a high level champion or sovereign really ought to feel obscenely overpowered compared to conventional units.  

As a suggestion, one thing that I liked about Master of Magic was that when your town had walls, it actually translated into a tactical advantage - the walls actually existed on the battlefield and obstructed movement and you could defend a bottleneck while your archers stayed safe and unflankable behind walls. (Well, unless they could fly.  Or teleport.  Or break down walls)  While the defensive bonus that walls give currently is nice, it's completely in the background and doesn't alter tactical combat in the way that having city walls ought to.  In the absence of actually adding a specific wall mechanic to tactical gameplay (although it would be kinda cool to have a wall-climbing ability for champions in the assassin path...), walls could perhaps just create impassable terrain on the battlefield in such a way as to create a one-square bottleneck that the attackers would need to make their way through.  If militias were also given some form of ranged attack (maybe something like thrown rocks, upgraded to bows when the tech is discovered) that would make it significantly harder to conquer a city without having to do prep work.  If the AI were also taught to put a unit with high def/dodge in the bottleneck and use the full defensive command, it might work even better.  (there are all sorts of more complicated ways in which something like walls could be implemented, and many of those would be better - this is an example of doing it without hanging the game engine)

2. The rankings need to better reflect champion strength (including itemization).  In the game I played it was the rating that was wrong rather than the opponent's strength- my sovereign and one other champion had cleared out all the monsters on a very large chunk of the map while I stayed on only one or two cities, and had reached the point where they were both very high level, very well outfitted, and laughed in the face of the far inferior troops my opponent had.  However, since this wasn't reflected in the empire power rating (and therefore presumably wasn't reflected in the diplomatic AI's calculations) I got declared on and the opponent ended up entering into a war he hadn't a prayer of winning.  Champion strength should probably have an exponential effect on empire power rating.  It's like having nuclear weapons in the real world - it doesn't matter how large a country is geographically, if they have nuclear weapons they get treated as a serious player.  The in game empire power ratings need to have a similar understanding of the game world - the largest army and empire are good, but if the other empire is packing the FE equivalent of nuclear weapons, the big empire should be thinking twice about declaring on the small one.  Whatever the actual power curve and difficulty of leveling champions ultimately is, if they reach the point of becoming veritable demigods, the system should do its best to recognize that and reflect it in the perceived strength of the empire.

For that matter, two other things that need to be given more weighting in terms of perceived empire power are money and key defender's advantage technologies.  Cash should almost be treated as if it was equivalent to several turns of rush buying the best defenders I have available, and certain defensive techs (most importantly archery) are going to make the defender much better.  Enemy aggression is good, but their opportunism needs to be calibrated so that they're only opportunistic when they can actually win the battles.