Barrynor Barrynor

Something to think about: Terraforming... and the utter mayhem it can cause.

▼

Something to think about: Terraforming... and the utter mayhem it can cause.

from Elemental Forums


So here we have them... Create Mountain, Lower Land, Raise Land... all extremely powerfull spells that allow one to seriously, and by seriously I mean SERIOUSLY dictate the flow of everything around your lands. Currently I have a load of mana lying around you would not believe... what stops me from creating a double mountain ringed "island"  that is only accessible through two holes, opposite of each other, with two good stacks blocking the entrance, and 1 shard type of each inside and then cast my spell of Mastery? There's no way you'll be able to get there, unless you, the AI, uses Lower Land to create pathways.

AI is located on peninsula, his main city  at the back. No way for me to reach it other than through his armies... but his vision range is limited to 6, max... so I send two armies towards the sea near his peninsula, and create a landbridge and stomp him. From behind. The final landbridge is created in one turn of casting ( takes 300 mana), and my troops are already halfway over before the turn has passed.

Oh noes, the AI is coming towards me over that land-bridge that connects the contine... *SHAZAM* no it doesnt.

Look, a massive army approaches my capital... * casts create mountain a few times* detour!

Terraforming... take into account that players can and will create their own fortresses, islands and Mt. Doom.

 

I personally vote to put a cooldown on those spells.

27,108 views 41 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

And why is it so difficult to create a pass through mountains that your units can use.

It always takes me forever to locate that ONE tile that is blocking the pass!!! UGH!!!

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top


I am a REALLY big fan of how MoM accomplished terraforming. The spells were 'toggle' based.

Spell A: Turn Plains to Hills OR Hills to Plains.

Spell B: Turn Iron to Gold OR Gold to Iron

Those sorts of things.

Building Mountains or Sinking lands was never allowed and shouldn't be....too game warping.

Then there were the chaos spells. Global spells that really caused mayham, but at random. They did the mountains and sinking lands stuff...but at random.

 

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Given the way the map generator works, I think the terraforming spells are pretty useful. They require a reasonable amount of mana (compared to the precursor game especially) and sometimes a reasonably high Earth Magic level, so why not. I use them rather rarely in recent games, but I remember using it to create a mountain pass to quickly move troops to locations cut off by mountain ranges.

Insulating yourself sounds good on paper, but if your enemy is smart enough, they will find a way around and it halts your expansion as well. So there's a downside to this strategy as well. How are you going to get to special areas if you've cut yourself off?

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GFireflyE, reply 27
I am a REALLY big fan of how MoM accomplished terraforming. The spells were 'toggle' based.
Spell A: Turn Plains to Hills OR Hills to Plains.
Spell B: Turn Iron to Gold OR Gold to Iron
Those sorts of things.
Building Mountains or Sinking lands was never allowed and shouldn't be....too game warping.
Then there were the chaos spells. Global spells that really caused mayham, but at random. They did the mountains and sinking lands stuff...but at random
End of GFireflyE's quote

I really liked the terraforming from "Master of Magic" but since Elemental does not use the same key mechanics for cities they will be mostly useless here, sadly.
I don't think creating mountains is too much, I just think it should  be rather high level / high mana to create the mountains, and really ease to lower/remove them.
I still wish the Movement hell of "Elemental" would cease though, that would make it much better just to put hills around your cities for a 1-more-turn advantage against incoming forces.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top


The AI definatly uses the lower/raise land. I was building a land bridge across a lake because an AI had blocked a narrow path with a tower. I needed a shorter way around and had extra man to spare.

 

It needed one more raise land to finish but I was conserving mana and when I went back one of the AI's had finished it for me.

 

I guess he was also mad at the AI that blocked the path with the tower .. or maybe he just wanted to get access to attacking me?  8C

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Horsesfly, reply 31
I guess he was also mad at the AI that blocked the path with the tower .. or maybe he just wanted to get access to attacking me? 
End of Horsesfly's quote

Ofcourse :)
Look at that picture, I want to squat it too! xD

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 30



Quoting GFireflyE,
reply 27
I am a REALLY big fan of how MoM accomplished terraforming. The spells were 'toggle' based.
Spell A: Turn Plains to Hills OR Hills to Plains.
Spell B: Turn Iron to Gold OR Gold to Iron
Those sorts of things.
Building Mountains or Sinking lands was never allowed and shouldn't be....too game warping.
Then there were the chaos spells. Global spells that really caused mayham, but at random. They did the mountains and sinking lands stuff...but at random


I really liked the terraforming from "Master of Magic" but since Elemental does not use the same key mechanics for cities they will be mostly useless here, sadly.
I don't think creating mountains is too much, I just think it should  be rather high level / high mana to create the mountains, and really ease to lower/remove them.
I still wish the Movement hell of "Elemental" would cease though, that would make it much better just to put hills around your cities for a 1-more-turn advantage against incoming forces.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej
End of Kongdej's quote

But, putting hills around to restrict movement should have a downside. Food production, as an example, may be impeded. You're troops too, will have the movement restriction.

Would be nice if you could cast a spell to create a tunnel through a mountain... XD aka Moria

Alas, for movement to get an overhaul, I think FE's tatics needs an overhaul. It wouldn't be fair to restrict movement on the main map, but not do the same in the combat map.

 

 

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 32
Quoting Horsesfly, reply 31I guess he was also mad at the AI that blocked the path with the tower .. or maybe he just wanted to get access to attacking me? 

Ofcourse
Look at that picture, I want to squat it too!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej
End of Kongdej's quote

 

What!?! I'm just an innocent peace-loving fly.   }:)

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GFireflyE, reply 33
But, putting hills around to restrict movement should have a downside. Food production, as an example, may be impeded. You're troops too, will have the movement restriction.

Would be nice if you could cast a spell to create a tunnel through a mountain... aka Moria

Alas, for movement to get an overhaul, I think FE's tatics needs an overhaul. It wouldn't be fair to restrict movement on the main map, but not do the same in the combat map.
End of GFireflyE's quote

So besides paying up t 1k mana there should be a downside? O_o
A slow-moving field is a 2 way slowing area though, so it slows my own troops too.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 35



Quoting GFireflyE,
reply 33
But, putting hills around to restrict movement should have a downside. Food production, as an example, may be impeded. You're troops too, will have the movement restriction.

Would be nice if you could cast a spell to create a tunnel through a mountain... aka Moria

Alas, for movement to get an overhaul, I think FE's tatics needs an overhaul. It wouldn't be fair to restrict movement on the main map, but not do the same in the combat map.


So besides paying up t 1k mana there should be a downside?
A slow-moving field is a 2 way slowing area though, so it slows my own troops too.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej
End of Kongdej's quote

Maybe that is suppose to be the downside...but if you can easily aquire the 1k mana....then it's not much of a downside. Since I have not yet played the beta yet, I do not have a relative position has to how much 1k of mana is worth. I'll leave that to the pros.

 

Reply #36 from Stardock Forums Top


So here we have them... Create Mountain, Lower Land, Raise Land... all extremely powerfull spells that allow one to seriously, and by seriously I mean SERIOUSLY dictate the flow of everything around your lands. Currently I have a load of mana lying around you would not believe... what stops me from creating a double mountain ringed "island"  that is only accessible through two holes, opposite of each other, with two good stacks blocking the entrance, and 1 shard type of each inside and then cast my spell of Mastery? There's no way you'll be able to get there, unless you, the AI, uses Lower Land to create pathways.

AI is located on peninsula, his main city  at the back. No way for me to reach it other than through his armies... but his vision range is limited to 6, max... so I send two armies towards the sea near his peninsula, and create a landbridge and stomp him. From behind. The final landbridge is created in one turn of casting ( takes 300 mana), and my troops are already halfway over before the turn has passed.

Oh noes, the AI is coming towards me over that land-bridge that connects the contine... *SHAZAM* no it doesnt.

Look, a massive army approaches my capital... * casts create mountain a few times* detour!

Terraforming... take into account that players can and will create their own fortresses, islands and Mt. Doom.

 

I personally vote to put a cooldown on those spells.
End of quote

Or they coulds put in ships and other sea units like most 4X games

Reply #37 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 13
Speaking of Age of Wonders ... why are Shadow Demons just 'evil' while Undead are 'pure evil'? Shouldn't it be the other way around? (just getting this off wikipedia, don't know about the accuracy of the information)
End of Tasunke's quote

I would have made them Pure Evil if I could. I do agree that the Undead are also Pure Evil.  However I have created many new Shadow Demons units that have the Pure Evil alignment.

Oh and just for the record it seems that the AOW:SM AI (after all the updates) do know how to use player created water units just fine. And they are not bad when using the original water units. Use to be the AI had a hard time with navel units. 

Now the oceans in my AOW:SM games are deadly and I like it like that.

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

I like terraforming and use it a good bit.  I do have one gripe.  To accomplish anything, like lowering a mountain, it takes the same two casts to lower the foot hills as the heights of the mountain.  That doesn't seem right.

In fact, why do we have to do two casts to lower either?  Why not double the mana required and get the job done in one cast for each tile?  Cutting through a mountain range may involve four or more tiles, which means I end up casting Lower Land eight or more times in a row.  That gets tiresome.

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top


I think terraforming and some other spells like Curgen's Volcano, need to to have a casting time.  Changing and haping the land should be an exhausting process.  The current system you can cast raise and lower land on a whim.  I like the spells and the concept, but I think they need to be tweaked.

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting KingHobbit, reply 40

I think terraforming and some other spells like Curgen's Volcano, need to to have a casting time.  Changing and haping the land should be an exhausting process.  The current system you can cast raise and lower land on a whim.  I like the spells and the concept, but I think they need to be tweaked.
End of KingHobbit's quote

Id rather have a cool-down, but then again, try to reflect about how it would feel to have to wait and do nothing with your hero (usually sovereign) just to lower a mountain 1 tile, where you have to lower 3-4 tiles before you can walk through.

Just food for thought.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd be more interested in feedback about terraforming from multi-player games.  Playing solo I love it's nod back to Populous (for those old enough to remember how great that game was).  The spell point investment to go Terra-crazy is pretty steep, not to mention it's limited nature (area you control & neutral area only) so not sure that it's really OP or anything.