Armor: make it a decision

Plate armor should limit dexterity and provide a hefty penalty to bow users...

Overall I agree with this

Heavier armor is better unless you don't have enough strength to carry it without becoming encumbered. The problem is that it is too easy to get very high strength values.

Go ahead and be encumbered. There isn't really enough of a penalty to avoid it. One of my major gripes. 

Wearing the best armor you can without reaching encumbrance is not a choice, even if encumbrance were really hindering.

Also, this runs into an issue with unit design, where how well armored a unit is gets determined by how well he has a horse (and a bit from special bonuses, I suppose).

I know that early game, 1 point of initiative penalty is noticeable. Perhaps the penalties should be harsher but there has to be a way for units to wear plate without being completely stuck. Mind you, none of my games have reached the point where I researched plate armor. The issue may be that it is much harder to get plate armor for units versus champions. On the flip side, with a small investment in warfare technology it is easier to equip units in the early to mid game than champions especially if there are very few goodie huts.

I've noticed the same thing, where armour feels like it's improving from each stage so much, that you feel no desire to use the lower levels once you have the higher levels. Even the auto-upgrade-equipment feature just treats light armour as a stepping stone to 'the real stuff'.

I've got a half-typed up post saved where I'm trying to decide how best to present a variety of issues, but here is what I worte about armour:

Change the armour research system so that the three levels of armour research (leatherworking, armour, heavy armour) instead provide three different levels of improvement of three armour types, light, medium and heavy. These three armour weights function similarly to the three current armour advancement levels, except they are all available from the beginning. The three levels of research improve all three armour types along a three tier system (blimey this involves the word 'three' a lot).

So for example, 'Leatherworking' as a research skill is replaced with 'Basic Armour crafting' and provides three types of armour, a light (Padded), a medium (basic chainmail) and a heavy (coat of plates). As you continue to research, you unlock the next tier of armour research called 'Advanced Armour crafting' which unlocks three more armour types, the light (Leather), the medium (splintmail) and the heavy (Half plate). A further level of research provides another level of advancement.

Each armour type has its own genuine advantage and is all a genuine consideration, depending on the role of the troop type. Light armour weighs almost nothing and so works well with archers (to avoid a worse initiative penalty than the bow already provides). Medium armour weighs a bit so can end up with an initiative penalty, but is overall acceptable, making it fine for quicker skirmishers or basic soldiers. Each piece of Heavy armour provides an individual initiative penalty in addition to the weight concern (an important point, since this would provide a serious disincentive to use this frivilously) but strong defensive abilities. This level of differentiation would mean that armour wasn't just a stepping stone towards something better, but each different type had a genuine reason to exist, even in late-game.

How about being able to enchant armour, and only certain types of armour can get certain types of enchantments.  Use your imagination on what those enchatments could be.

Indeed something kinda like this would be best. We need armor progression but at the same time we should never be limited to having just one type of armor for our units, it kinda defies the entire point. Don't necessarily need them all in the same tech or to always have three options but we do need options.

Heavier armor should have dex and initiative penalties, otherwise why get light armor?

I like the idea of initiative penalties if and only if the ability to get insane initiatives on champions are tacked down.

Derek, please give this a read. Its probably within the realm of doing and it would add much needed tactical depth.

On that front: it would be nice if armor could be "improved" through research. Much like in Gal CivII, you could research the same tech multiple times. You only need to research it once (most of the time) to be able to research the next tech but additional research could improve armor. That way Leather armor isn't obsolete so early.

Edit: Sorry the OP said most of what i said. Re-iteration doesn't hurt.

Multiple damage types are in the game. Using your example, leather armor could give a piercing damage resist etc.

Should increase 'chance' not effect. As the chance is currently abysmal and regular units can't crit >.>

Otherwise, Rogdan the idea crusher supports this message.

I want to see the new beta before really making a decision about whether or not a mod to the core armor is necessary. I am guessing Derek has a plan to balance it, but he has other more important tasks for his team right now.

Another idea.  Make it spells more costly if not wearing robes.

An idea that I had off the top of my head is to give bonuses depending on the Path a champ takes. For example, path of the assasin could give bonuses for every piece of leather a champion wears (or full set?). Path of the Warrior could give bonuses for using Plate, and casters for wearing robes? You get the idea .

This way you would give incentive for actually wearing something other than plate to differnt types of champs. The numbers and bonuses would of course require some balancing but the idea is what counts and I think it would be interesting.

After checking Encumbrance does reduce the initiative of a unit a tiny bit, but not enough. A dexterity penalty would be nice to. 

I would say movement, dexterity and Initiative should be affected. I have geared up with too much weight before in real life. It is not pleasant. Thank goodness this can be modded in just a minute. 

^ What he said.

Movement is difficult to affect as it is by default at 2, whereas there are about 5 different parts to an armour set. Have one part provide a -1 to movement? People will just avoid it. Have each part provide a -0.2 to movement? People will either find the threshold where they lose a point of movement and tiptoe it for maximum armour, or if you lose a point of movement the moment you have ANY heavy armour, just go full barrel. Personally I would like a set-up where you can mix-and-match different levels of armour to have troop types that sit as a hybrid between the different possible roles.

Sounds like the penalties should be percentages instead of just points.

I wouldn't mind strength minimums for champions to wear chain and plate.

Leather should not provide bonuses period.

I am going to mod the penalty to being encumbered so that it does something like -2 Strength, -2 Initiative, -1 Move.

There is no need to mess with the armor itself. All mods need to be modular if possible. 

What happens if reducing the strength makes the unit even more encumbered?

Take off the armor. The encumbered function has only three levels to it. -2 Strength, -2 Initiative, -1 Move would be the highest penalty. It should be enough to make you take off the armor or design a better unit. That is just a number I would start with. I would have to test that this actually makes being encumbered a problem. I may have to double it. 

Is it possible to make the movement a minimum of 1?  Or would you argue that if you get a movement of 0 it is obviously too heavy for your unit and thus it must be taken off?

PS: Is there any chance Stardock could provide a similar disincentive for being encumbered?  Is that really a game mechanics change, or merely a balance change?  I would argue it's a balance change, to not make having too much equipment virtually meaningless.

That is my point. I would only need to mod it if it doesn't get balanced. Armor is not looking too well balanced right now, largely because weight doesn't matter. I believe that an overly heavy unit should be immobile or at least useless in a fight. There should be serious consequences to not designing a good unit. Otherwise the whole concept is meaningless.