[0.77] Initiative System is flawed and suggestions about a lot of other stuff....

Actually, I didn't intend to write about the beta just yet, as I'm still dive through all the existing exploits and balance issues I found. But I feel it is urgent to talk about the current initiative system, because as it stands it is flawed. Very much so. 

 

Before I go Elemental specific let me draw a analogy with another game, as I believe that designers can learn a lot from other game designs.

As Nival was contracted to work on Heroes of Might and Magic 5 they decided to leave the old initiative system (closed turns, initiative decides move order within the turn) for a new one: an open turn initiative system, the same Elemental:FE currently uses.

By the start of developing HOMM6 the initiative system was one of the most complained about and Nival ditched it in favor for the old initiatice system.

 

So why is a open initiative system not a good idea? Because it tends to be an extreme system, meaning even a small difference in initiative leads to huge differences in amount of turns taken.

Missing out on turns relative to enemy is a big deal. It automatically forces an initiative arms race because otherwise you face the same fate as my AI opponents: they get swept away by my little group without any hope of serious retaliation, as I abuse the current system to the max. 

It would be so much better if we change the system to closed turns and initiative just determines the move order. So it is guaranteed that each unit as the same amount of attacks.

Initiative would be still worthwhile as having the first strike is a clear advantage. If Derek things high initiative should be more rewarded than he should add traits in a similar fashion like Brute for Strength or something along the lines.    

  

 

Speaking of tactical combat I have some other complaints and requestrs apart from the initiative system. I might write a more verbose post about them later on so I keep it brief:

- add way more range weapons (like crossbows, Arbalests, repeating crossbows, javelins, throwing axes, real military used throwing knives, slings, ballistas, hence I wouldn't mind some early gunpowder weapon like a Handcannon or ceramic-granades and let them scale with dexterity

- think of more debuffs coming from weapons (for example giving bows the volley ability which lowers the attack and move)  

- use less percentage based modifiers as they tend to snowball 

- widen the minimum gap by A LOT between the two armies at the begin of battle, as right now it is way too easy to traverse the full distance AND also running behind all defenders straight to the archers. This makes archers almost pointless right now. Even for very fast Units it should take at least 2 Turns to reach the enemy

- Separate campaign move speed and combat move speed in regards of some spells and items like: Compass and Tireless March. They should only add movement on the campaign map and have no effect on the tactical map. On top of it they shouldn't stack. (Super easy to create an army with move of 10+ about midgame)

- Leave that strange blunt/cutting/pierce damage system behing and think more along the lines of counters and unit types. Like Cavalery having First Strike but Spears negate that and having First Strike them self. Axes have boni against shields. Ravenhammers provide bonus against armor. Some weapons should give several attacks in a row (like maul, but without accuracy malus and also with a determined amount of attacks) in exchange for damge. Therefor we would have weapons being good for low armor opponents and weapons for high amour opponents.

- add traits or equipment that raise the number of soldiers in a given unit beyond that  

- make certain traits and equipment to each other exclusive. To forbid certain combinations.

- limit the choice of Accessories. I opt for one for troops and three for heroes. With that in line you can make accessories more potent

- add at least another strategic resource like metal to the game. For example "Expertise" - a resource generated by military structures, which is spend on using traits for units.

- make traits more meaningful and more in line of giving units a purpose in battle. 

- let trait slots be unlocked by appropriate techs 

- the recruit able monsters have as of current no scaling with the technology. making them practically outdated as soon as you are able to recruit them. IMO they should also be able to receive additional traits via the army designer to differentiate them out.

- Give units a max experience level. For normal units something of like level 5. For "single soldier" units like recruitable monsters something like level 10, maybe and Heroes the max level 15.

- Rebalance the hero traits and throw the garbage out. Think more along the lines of hero classes. Don't add so many +# to Strength/Dex/Int or whatever, think more of abilities, debuffs on hit, resistancies and immunities. 

- Give Heroes bit more uniqueness. Something like an exclusive trait. Pls! 

- Think about giving each unit equipped with a melee weapon one counter attack, add a trait that gives a unit unlimited retaliation.

- Rebalance Dexterity as a whole. Is the weakest stat right now. Maybe it should provide a init bonus on the first turn (but only on a closed initiative system) or Accuracy bonus.  

- Remove the Experience Bonus from Intelligence pls

 

In order to entangle the current defence system and make each stat more worthwhile on its own. 

- Make basic attacks with the primary weapon unaffected by Accuracy or enemies Dodge (so they hit always), defence applies as normal

- All physical active abilities scale or test with accuracy against enemies dodge if they hit or are resisted (... and add a lot of new abilites) [like magic spells works with Spell masteries and Spell Resistance), if they fail the check they still might hit for a lesser effect, defence MAY apply as normal 

- physical active abilities can have a skill wide cooldown. For example make crushing blow a cooldown of 2 turns. Preventing the user of crushing blow to use another physical active ability like double strike for the next 2 turns. Exceptions might exist of course.

- All magic abilites scale or test with Spell Mastery against Spell Resistance as it is now 

 

Uuuuuh this post is getting longer and longer, might as well add some further requests about the interface and graphics >_< 

 

About the interface:

- Don't hide buttons on the main interface on the campaign map if the resolution allows it to present them.

- The Unit Detail Screen lacks arrows to cycle between units of an army. (Something similiar like those arrow buttons on the shopping screen or the trade screen)

- Upgrading units with better equipment is very much a pain in the ass right now. Please provide a proper upgrade screen that offers not only the change of equipment but also of the unit size and traits. The owner hast to pay for any addtional resource costs in metal, horses, wars and so on in relation to the units initial costs plus the upgrade costs. (but pls lessen the gold cost a bit, too hefty right now) 

- The City Upgrade Screen lacks a detail button. I would love to check out the city before I have to choose the special building.  

 

About the graphics:

- Pls Stardock, If you have the free recourses, then add additional art for each standard weapon (like Clubs, Warhammer, Dagger) and standard defense item (like Leather Cuirass, Wood Shield...) as most soldiers look like clone warriors as they all look a like. There is seriously lack of flavor :-)

   

And last but not least:

Bring back the major events like they have been in galactic civilizations 2 (but not the flawed good/evil system >_>). but make them toggable on the game setup screen, in case some people dislike them.

 

Oh, and before I forget it:

No neutral creature is allowed to attack the last city of a player under any circumstance. IMO a very important rule.  

And increase mana income - way too low right now. 

 

 

... the post got longer than I intended :-D 

 

12,698 views 16 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think the initiative system is great, because the initiative should be very important, but, as you mentioned, FE has too many snowball effects. Initiative, spell damage, movement and mana per turn can get to extreme levels.

Your suggestion to split strategical and tactical movement would help to remove some snowball effects and i think the talents should be more like the feats in D&D or the perks in Fallout. Many of them should give the hero special abilities (whirlwind: melee attack with 1 square radius, manyshot: 3 ranged attacks but unable to attack or move in the next phase, ...).

Reply #2 Top

Currently initiative is just too easy for champions to get. While waiting for traits more applicable for the champion design I have in mind ("More dex based traits? I want this guy to be a huge axe wielder! Not an agile strutter! Oh well, I'll just grab the bonus to move and initiative") I usually end up with champions with ridiculously high initiatives. One game was pretty much over the moment my master-evoker fire mage had enough initiative to get two turns before any enemy unit had a chance to. Fireball their grouped up forces. Win.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting CrazyHarlequin, reply 2
Currently initiative is just too easy for champions to get. While waiting for traits more applicable for the champion design I have in mind ("More dex based traits? I want this guy to be a huge axe wielder! Not an agile strutter! Oh well, I'll just grab the bonus to move and initiative") I usually end up with champions with ridiculously high initiatives. One game was pretty much over the moment my master-evoker fire mage had enough initiative to get two turns before any enemy unit had a chance to. Fireball their grouped up forces. Win.
End of CrazyHarlequin's quote

 See. Because with an open initiative system a unit with high initiative can move 2x times in a row. That's totally game breaking. And when the complete army can move several times before the enemy can react it's just a sad joke.

 

Reply #4 Top

So why is a open initiative system not a good idea? Because it tends to be an extreme system, meaning even a small difference in initiative leads to huge differences in amount of turns taken.
End of quote

Have you played tactical battles in WoM?  I would never advocate for a return to closed turns. 

Having said that, I agree that initiative is OP in FE.  But everything is OP and there are ways to limit initiative advantage so that the size of the difference between initiative is much less significant. 

In the current system units with equivalent initiative values get shots 10 each in 10 rounds.  Doubling the initiative seems to mean that the faster unit gets 20 shots in 10 rounds, pretty much an overwhelming advantage.  Instead, you could adjust the calculation so that the faster unit gets 12 shots in 10 rounds.  That's still a significant advantage and worthwhile, but not it's not crippling to the slower unit.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 4

Have you played tactical battles in WoM?  I would never advocate for a return to closed turns. 
End of sweatyboatman's quote

Well, sadly I played WoM, otherwise I wouldn't have access to the beta for the Elemental:FE Beta...

WoM didn't had a real initiative system. At first it was pure random who starts and then you just move all your units then the enemy does the same and so on... I'm not sure how it is right now as I deinstalled WoM half a year ago.

That's not what I'm looking for. So please don't compare my idea with the brocken stuff in WoM.

 

In HOMM6 each creature has an initiative rating just like in E:FE, but every creature, with some exceptions, moved only one time a turn. Plain, simple, much less able to abuse. 

Initiative was still important in HOMM6 but not the most important factor to pitch.

As long as the E:FE system stays at is, it doesn't matter whether or not there are many or few ways to increase initiative because it is MANDATORY to take them all as the bonus they offer is just too high to pass up. 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Xadie, reply 3
See. Because with an open initiative system a unit with high initiative can move 2x times in a row. That's totally game breaking. And when the complete army can move several times before the enemy can react it's just a sad joke.
End of Xadie's quote

That's just a balance issue, and it's not that one unit is moving twice a turn it's that there are no turns.

Reply #7 Top

I'm sorry but i totally disagree... I've been into tabletop gaming since 1992 and the best turnation systems are, IMHO, the open ones. Many of the things you present as problems with an OI are just balance issues, within the existing system.

 

I have no time to express my point better than this ATM but I'll return if the thread goes on...

Reply #8 Top

Arbalest, crossbows.. yeah. Yeah. Seems awfully strange that you'd have to spend years researching how to use a basic short bow. Still, there isnt a lot of point in adding more ranged weapons if they're going to be mechanically identical to bows. There's no max range for bows, no ammo.. traditional bows dont scale with strength at all, so there's no benefit to giving a weak fighter a crossbow.. Horses don't care about bows.

Very enthusiastic about a max level. Wouldnt go over very well with the fans, but I think it's a great idea.

I would love larger battles but that's contrary to the stated goal.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 15
Derek has told me that anything that makes a tactical battle take more than 3 minutes to finish is a bad thing and I have come to agree with that.
End of Frogboy's quote

So that's out.. but on the whole I'm with you on like 80% of this.

 

Reply #9 Top

Impulsive needs to be changed from a flat +10 to a single free turn for all impulsive units on start, or nerfed in some other fashion.

 

It's too good with mages especially.

Reply #10 Top

Both systems can work and both have their own design pitfalls.  Tactical RPGs have made good use of an open intitative system for years now.  But, by the same token, strict turn-based battles in King's Bounty have a ton of depth, balance, and flavor.

I do tend to be of a mind that open initiative systems rely on counterattacks to balance out the large advantages generally associated with initiative.  The rarity of counterattacks in FE will make initiative very difficult to balance.  This is exacerbated by relatively easy acces to initiative bonuses.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Garisi, reply 8
Arbalest, crossbows.. yeah. Yeah. Seems awfully strange that you'd have to spend years researching how to use a basic short bow. Still, there isnt a lot of point in adding more ranged weapons if they're going to be mechanically identical to bows. There's no max range for bows, no ammo.. traditional bows dont scale with strength at all, so there's no benefit to giving a weak fighter a crossbow..
 
End of Garisi's quote

Plenty of benefits to having multiple types of ranged weapons.

Bows: Lower damage, low initiative penalty

Crossbows: Higher damage, higher initiative penalty

Thrown (e.g. throwing knife, javelins, pilum):Short range but reasonable damage, and limited weight at the expense of one-shot.

 

Reply #12 Top

Quoting malekith, reply 10

I do tend to be of a mind that open initiative systems rely on counterattacks to balance out the large advantages generally associated with initiative.  The rarity of counterattacks in FE will make initiative very difficult to balance.
End of malekith's quote

Yeah, counterattacks as a general rule would be nice. Something like each unit equipped with a melee weapon has one counterattack between turns, with special traits they can raise the number of retaliation - maybe even have unlimited numbers of counterattacks. 

You could expand it even more: a Protection trait would allow a unit to counterattack an enemy in range who attacks another friendly unit,  

 

Quoting CrazyHarlequin, reply 11


Plenty of benefits to having multiple types of ranged weapons.

Bows: Lower damage, low initiative penalty

Crossbows: Higher damage, higher initiative penalty

Thrown (e.g. throwing knife, javelins, pilum):Short range but reasonable damage, and limited weight at the expense of one-shot.

 
End of CrazyHarlequin's quote

 

You can go further than that.

 

In general I'm not so in favor in giving range weapons huge initiative mali. It would be nice to have a line of fire rule: if another enemy unit is in between the shooter and the target it will absorb the majority of the damage. With such a rule and Shields as a range weapon counter player can cover their vulnerable units.    

  

Bows: low base damage and get's a small bonus for each soldier in the targeted enemy unit (but not such ridiculous boni like Overpower or Blizzard / Fireball, which are totally unbalanced) and provides the Volley-Ability, which debuffs the enemy unit with something like -1 move & -1 attack (numbers open for change and might debend on the bow in hand)  

Crossbows: good damage provides some armor penetration. 

Arbalest: high armor penetration; Unit can either move or shoot; after shooting on the next turn of the unit it can either move or spending a turn to reload 

Heavy throwing knifes (african style throwing knifes would be sweet:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_selection_of_African_throwing_knives_in_room_25_of_the_British_museum.JPG )

, throwing axes or javelins could act as a side arm with limited ammunition. They can perhaps provide a special charge ability. The unit opens up with a throwing attack and then continues with a melee attack with the main weapon. Heavy throwing weapons ignore the dodge bonus shields grant against range attacks in general. Against wooden shield they might even apply debuff of -1 defense or something, but that might be too much - even as it makes perfectly sense.

 

For melee weapons they're so many options as well:

being riding a horse or warg grants an attack boni depending and the distance traversed towards the target.

Spears can have an attack boni against riders and provide some cavalery protection to adjaceted units. They could offer a shrill-shield like effect when beeing attacked by cavalry.

Ravenhammers and the like should provide the armour penetration for melee purposes.

Axes, Flails, heavy Clubs  ignore the defense + dodge boni shields provide, provide a stunned debuff (something like -1 iniative & -1 defense maybe?) but limited armor penetration.

 

I can even imagine melee weapons as a sidearm (accessory) especially for daggers and stilettos. Wouldn't mind to have a "Panzerstecher" (not sure about the translation - hm - armorstinger pehaps?), a quite heavy and sturdy dagger to penetrate full plate armor.  

 

As long the Stardock people implement a limit for the number of equipped accessories, it should be fine. As i mentioned on my first post I#m in favor for 1 accessory slot for normal units and 3 accessory slots for heroes. So people have to think about what to choose instead of willy-nilly equip it all. On top of it many accessories can receive some buffs as right now they provide rather lackluster boni.   

 

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Xadie, reply 12

In general I'm not so in favor in giving range weapons huge initiative mali. It would be nice to have a line of fire rule: if another enemy unit is in between the shooter and the target it will absorb the majority of the damage. With such a rule and Shields as a range weapon counter player can cover their vulnerable units.    

As long the Stardock people implement a limit for the number of equipped accessories, it should be fine. As i mentioned on my first post I#m in favor for 1 accessory slot for normal units and 3 accessory slots for heroes. So people have to think about what to choose instead of willy-nilly equip it all. On top of it many accessories can receive some buffs as right now they provide rather lackluster boni.
End of Xadie's quote

I think line of sight will not be implemented in FE, because it takes too much development time, but the initiative system should be used much more. All spells should have an initiative modifier to make spells like slow more powerful and spells like fireball less powerful.

Yep the number of magical items and potions should be limited to 2 magical items (4 with magic tech) and 2 potions (4 with magic tech).

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Wizard1200, reply 13

but the initiative system should be used much more. All spells should have an initiative modifier to make spells like slow more powerful and spells like fireball less powerful.
End of Wizard1200's quote

Wasn't the casting time supposed to do that? Firball takes an additional turn, Battle Cry two turns (but I think it's currently bugged, I recall that it took me only one additional turn contrary to the description)

 

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Wizard1200, reply 13

Quoting Xadie, reply 12
In general I'm not so in favor in giving range weapons huge initiative mali. It would be nice to have a line of fire rule: if another enemy unit is in between the shooter and the target it will absorb the majority of the damage. With such a rule and Shields as a range weapon counter player can cover their vulnerable units.    

As long the Stardock people implement a limit for the number of equipped accessories, it should be fine. As i mentioned on my first post I#m in favor for 1 accessory slot for normal units and 3 accessory slots for heroes. So people have to think about what to choose instead of willy-nilly equip it all. On top of it many accessories can receive some buffs as right now they provide rather lackluster boni.

I think line of sight will not be implemented in FE, because it takes too much development time, but the initiative system should be used much more. All spells should have an initiative modifier to make spells like slow more powerful and spells like fireball less powerful.

Yep the number of magical items and potions should be limited to 2 magical items (4 with magic tech) and 2 potions (4 with magic tech).
End of Wizard1200's quote

Fireball already has a 1 round casting time but with +10 init on first round trait this is meaningless

Reply #16 Top

TLDR;