I agree that that is story behind the game mechanic.  But, it's not a great mechanic, and I think it's just a left over from other games like it.  I really just don't see the point in research.  It doesn't add to the fun of playing the game.  

It's just one type of game design vs another. Some games decide to go for the unlock-through-prerequisites like C&C games and some tbs as well. Others go for a research system. They are repleacable with each other, sure. But what makes one better than the other? Mostly player preferences.

It could fit within the lore. There are some survivors of the war; a few blacksmiths are left and a couple builders and some horse breeders. A population requirement could even model this; only once your city is sufficiently large will the odds of having a blacksmith, builder, etc, be in your favor. Instead of having some scholar mysteriously researching how to forge a sword you just need a blacksmith who knows how. Building a forge for him and having a large enough city will "attract" one to you.

I really like this idea. It's true that TBS games usually take this mechanic for granted; they need some way of pacing the game and they turn to tech trees more often than not. But tech trees are not the only way of pacing a game.

I have to agree with the OP. Ever since WoM I have felt that tech trees are a bad fit for just about any fantasy game. I feel like the tech tree is getting in the way of the fun in this game. Tech trees fit where the time scale is either well beyond a persons lifetime like in Civ, or if it is the main narrative of the game like in MoO.

I understand that the fiction supports the idea of lost tech, but to me it feels very forced and full of plot holes. There are characters in the game who were around before the cataclysm, certainly they wouldn't forget that horses could be ridden or that things could be made out of metal!

The way I see it, it would be more plausible that what is lacking in the world is infrastructure, not tech. This was never a technological world to begin with. I think that building trees ala MoM would be a better fit.

I would like another TBS game without research and random map/city placing/building.  I played the crap out of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Dark Wizard, and Brigandine and they didn't have that.  Also, I think I would rather have one good map, than a random square island generator. It's much better than WoM, but it's still not on par with a CiV map.  But, might be limited without boats and with squares instead of hexes. 

The games you are idolizing are console games (yes romance was on pc but it was also on consoles). So we might as well throw Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Fire Emblem and all those in there too right? I agree with the lack of navy though and I do love hexes. Warlock looks to be interesting for some of those reasons. Just not a huge fan of paradox games, but if they go through with the $20.00 price they mentioned on the Angry Joe preview then I might get it.

I also agree with xalt about making diverse technologies available via different methods. I don't think any should be random at game start however...

For the others... I see where you're coming from, but I still disagree. Yes, there are some survivors of the cataclysm. Most the champions you meet however, are not craftsmen. If you wanted to go the route of starting with everything and just needing resources for it, it takes away from the pacing of the game. It's more of an RTS feature, rather then a TBS one. Personally, I wouldn't feel like I had accomplished much of anything if I just needed to go kill those few things and wow nifty sword. Sure, you can still get nifty swords, but they're looted items, rather then one you just have waiting back at the city. One of the biggest joys in a TBS game is the diversity that tech trees allow. If everyone has the same exact playing field, the ability to make everything without research, I would find that boring. If I wanted that kind of game I'd go play Star Craft. (Star Craft is a good game, but I can't spend hours enjoying it like I did WoM or Civ)

Now, a compromise...your soverign starts out - say you're playing Ceresa. She's a mage. Do you think she knows how to work a forge? Doubt it. I could see the leader of Guilden knowing some about it though. I believe thats where racial starting traits came about. I think starting techs should be limited to what your leader would know about since in the beginning it's just the sov vs the world. This would include adding more to a character creation system so that custom leaders could have a certain tree available to them at start. 

Over the course of the game, say you could meet NPCs/Champions who know other tech trees. In order to utilize them, they'd need to be hired on. Also, it would make more sense that if you were researching, that the champion that has that knowledge would have to be in a city and have proper facilities to do their research at. Also, you could find old blueprints from loots that unlock trees but still require a worker to do it. Alternately, you could have a hero/sov teach their basic knowledge to an expensive trainable unit called an Expert or something...who can stay in the city and do the research for you.

Now for the sake of not screwing people out of being able to start and get going, there should be base trees that every race starts with. The three available now are very broad ideas that cover a lot of topics. Going back to my Ceresa example, she may not know how to work a forge, but she would know the value of equipping her troops with good weapons. She would also know, being that she wishes to rule, about some basic techniques that would allow her to do so more efficiently. Being a mage, she would also (obviously) understand the importance and have some ideas on how to better use magic. Difference of knowledge vs common sense for the base 3 trees. I do think there should be sub-trees accessible under each one that are unlocked by items, or knowledge of certain npcs/champions that you hire on.

Basically - more specific example. The Warfare tree. It has to do with war. Okay? So what is war. War is a conflict. There really isn't much to war when just describing it as war. In terms of a tech tree, it should also not be as all-inclusive as it is. (btw, I like micro-management somewhat)

So...say you like spears. They're nifty. You stab people with them. Well, as a sub-tree of tech under Warfare should be something like Spear-Crafting. With more and deadly objects your artisans could learn to make, to hand to your soldiers to stick people with. Now you have a tree of spear items you can learn to make.

I hear the argument already. "Why learn to make? You have a blacksmith who provides the tree to do it! Why can't I just make my super person-sticker item NOW?!" Well, going back to the fiction. The Cataclysm. That blacksmith you hired on has probably been running for his life from random roving beasts and bandits and depraved survivors since then. He's probably a little bit rusty. So hire him, house him, build a nifty smithy for him and let him get back into practise by giving him metal and such to tinker with. Thus the tech-tree progression. 

In the same breadth, you make can make very powerful types of units using your super-person sticker weapon when the blacksmith has gotten back into the swing of things. It makes the game more diverse. Instead of having 'Oak Spear', you could have "Mitrhil Spear' or "Legendary Ebony Spear of DOOM' on your side rather then just...'Oak Spear'. Which is the same thing your enemy has if they have just basic equipment. Also, each tech-tree advancement could be more player-sensitive. Say your super-person sticker item you want in the end does tons and tons of damage...but weighs a LOT. While the other guy could go a more middling, or a light approach for less damage but more mobility.

I'm just throwing ideas out here, fellas so don't take any of my commentary personally. I believe tech trees are an important part of playing Elemental. If they removed them, much of the draw of the game would be gone for me. I like the feeling of accomplishment when I can finally do things I could not before, or build things I didn't have the knowledge to do previously. It makes the game more fulfilling, rather then just a mind-numbing, 'race for materials then go slaughter the other guy' fest that RTS games are.

I disagree as well, I love being able to plan out a grand strategy through tech research. I do think right now that it's a hassle because the gameplay does not mesh/isn't balanced with the tech tree very well. After 150 turns I'm just learning how to ride horses and form groups of units despite having a 6-adventurer level 18 mega kill everything fellowship and have pretty much won the game 100 turns ago. I didn't need anything from the tech tree to even help me win (probably the most important thing I researched is the training tech that allows one more person in an army = one more spell nuker in the fellowship).

That I think is the main problem and why a lot of people feel we don't need the tech tree... because we don't need anything from it to win the game. Maybe on a super large map and two empires far, far away from each other might use it eventually to create super awesome troops, but it just takes too long to reach that level when there's armies of heroes destroying everything in their path. Balance the gameplay with the tech tree and all will be awesome.

I like the suggestions xalt threw out there... they're exactly what Sword of the Stars does and their tech tree is the best I've ever seen and most fun to use.

In the short term, I'm wondering if we could have more heroes that have really beefy "town administrator" paths and traits that would really add some choices in the early game. Something like where there's a real benefit to keeping a hero stationed in a town as opposed to going out, killing everything and becoming a juggernaut. Something like:

*Heroes with the Path of the Administrator very rarely are allowed to get any traits that improve their combat ability (would love to have the other paths differentiate like this so that we can't have super awesome mages also be killer in melee, unless they're the sovereign of course... putting restrictions on gear would also help this quite a bit. Want that super awesome fire-resistant plate armor? Better be a Path of the Defender...)

*Heroes with the Admin path get XP for buildings being built and techs being researched under their command. Enough to keep pace with adventuring heroes (sort of like how there were 'Governors and Admirals' in Master of Orion 2).

*The amount of heroes in the world would need to decrease... or perhaps have other heroes come find you (not on the map, just as a function of prestige or something) instead of waiting on the map to be killed. Perhaps there could even be an "Available Heroes" scroll that shows where certain heroes like to hang out or if they're on any quests. Something like, "My lord, word on the street is that Sir Bumblesmiles is currently on a quest to destroy this troll lair (shown on map) because they murdered his wife and children. If we make for this lair posthaste, we might be able to help him with his task and endear him to our service." (Sir Bumblesmiles wouldn't actually be on the map, but if you got to that lair in say 20 or so turns there would be a special event instead of just getting loot) Right now it's too easy to just walk around, recruit a bunch of guys and go postal on the world (fun, but still too easy). I want to know my heroes are beholden to me through great deeds, not just because I paid them 45 gildar on turn 3.

I agree that research in it's current form seems unecessary and doesn't really add anything to the game. I think it would be much more interesting to work toward material, building, and population requirements in order to attain certain things. It would even create another dynamic in the game, forcing the player to make choices about outfitting a larger army now versus saving those resources and spending them on a better one later. Spending your resources on building up a city (which would actually be meaningful now) or creating that legendary sword for your champion.

Sounds more fun to me, Heroes III works this way and it makes all your choices seem more meaningful.

LMAO I totally love this option 

Nice try, but I like having a research tree.

I feel the Warfare Tech Tree needs to be removed fully unlocked from the beginning, the rest can stay for all I care. Though it'd be nice to have more indepth Magical development so I can actually pick or build my own spells.