[Balance] Re-evaluate xp Gained by Champions and Armies

from Elemental Forums

The issue is not so much with champions or armies being more powerful than the other, it's that leveling up a singular unit or group of units makes all future trained units pathetic by comparison. (The currently rediculous upgrade costs not withstanding)

Let's look at each of the issues causing the disparity (feel free to add more to these in your replies):

1. Not splitting xp: This highly supports the stack o doom mechanic and very quickly allows leveled units to get out of control.

2. No Leveling Cap: Whether it is a champion or a squadron of spearmen, a level 20 unit will trounced multiple units of the same type at a lower level

3. All champion Armies: It's not so much that it 'can' be done just that it is currently the most efficient

4. Low level defenders: Units that do not adventure do not gain experience and act as a very poor defense against leveled units.

5. Stack o Doom: There is little reason to mount any sort of offensive other than your stack of doom given both units and champions at low levels get trounced by their leveled counterparts. In addition without proper reproduction of formidable units, the loser of any given battle will be unlikely to recover. Strategy games that can utilize multiple armies in multiple locations contain considerably more 'strategy' than running one stack around until you win (or lose)

Here are the proposed solutions:

Split weighted xp: I do not propose to split xp based on unit level but based on unit type. Champions split the xp evenly with each other, and at 1/4 with regular units. Regular units normally recieve 25% xp and do not split the ammount. This should resolve issues 1 and 3.

Soft/Hard Level Cap: of 18 for heroes, 5 for units.

Regular units have double hp: At level 1 they recieve base 12 hp per unit, but their health increases by half of what it does currently at level up. To help balance the loss of total potential power, units gain small bonuses at level up, such as either init, acc, dex, or str at varying levels. A special attack would be neat to!

Units upgrade costs: The cost involved is time and materials at the city screen, and that unit can be outfitted to the next group tier.

All units recieve 1 xp per turn: Buildings and champion traits can increase this ammount. To balance this, the ammount of time a typical game should last would approximately equal the total of this value to reach level 5. Eg. If the game is supposed to take 500 turns, the xp required should be 20, 45, 80, 145, 210. Explained further below

Experienced, Veteran and Crusade: All reduce the total xp required for the next level by 1 tier. So experienced + veteran would reduce the total xp required to 145 (as it knocks off the last two tiers). Crusade becomes a global (or city) enchantment. Command Posts Also reduce this by 1 tier, Making late game units potentially max level in 20 or fewer turns, which they may need to be, to compete with the already leveled forces opposing them. Crusade could work on champions too!

War Buildings to Improve Defenders: Add different unit types to milita: archers, catapults, spearmen, cavalry and spread out starting placement (higher terrain would be awesome) to prevent instagib fireballs/blizzard.

Keep in mind these numbers are drawn out of a hat and maybe the typical game is supposed to last 1000 turns (though that seems excessive). The point is that the number of turns the game is supposed to last should be taken into consideration when balancing xp gained from buildings and combat, and that balance does not appear to be present.

Feel free to add other issues and suggestions for improvement and I will endeavor to keep this updated.

3,640 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Would not a simple "XP is gained for defenders so the can be somewhat competitive in defense" solve many of these issues?

I also think that more city defenders are in order. Currently they can be wiped out too easily with just one Fireball. Maybe have a Tank unit at every level 2 city so that magic can't end the battle on turn one? I do like that defenders are well equipped, but I have been able to stomp them with mere spear groups and some bows.

How about each building potentially adding a unit to defense:

Training Camp - 1 Archer at level one and an additional at level 3

Barracks - 1 Guard at level one and and addition at levels 3 and 5

War College - All spawned defenders gain two levels

 

That would make it much harder to take cities as the game progresses and we obtain superior units. They still wouldn't stop my high level army, but with enough of a garrison they could cause me to think twice before attacking. 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

1. Not splitting xp: This highly supports the stack o doom mechanic and very quickly allows leveled units to get out of control.
End of quote

Big problem, one that needs to be addressed.  No easy solution.  Regular units already only get 50% of their allotted XP.  After that, I think some "weighted by level" method for champions would work best, to reduce twinking, or smurfing, or whatever the $#@! it's called.

2. No Leveling Cap: Whether it is a champion or a squadron of spearmen, a level 20 unit will trounced multiple units of the same type at a lower level
End of quote

This is good the way it is.  Level caps suck, and we don't need 'em.  Once you start capping, you can't stop.  Regular units capped at 5 is a sick joke.

3. All champion Armies: It's not so much that it 'can' be done just that it is currently the most efficient
End of quote

I have yet to see this in action, so I don't necessarily agree.  I usually need a good mix of units to survive in my games.

4. Low level defenders: Units that do not adventure do not gain experience and act as a very poor defense against leveled units.
End of quote

I agree.  There needs to be some sort of training mechanism for stationed units.  Defenders need to be amply rewarded for defending.  Military buildings can do this.

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Another thing about high level trouncing low levels : add some "fatigue" mechanic. Each time you do anything you get 1 more fatigue point. each fatigue point reduce every roll you do by 1. Only "skip turn" without doing anything would help you getting rid of the fatigue (or some spells or some traits that would help you ignore the first fatigue point or get your fatigue back faster, etc.)

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 1
Would not a simple "XP is gained for defenders so the can be somewhat competitive in defense" solve many of these issues?
 
End of seanw3's quote

No, It solves one of them ^^; And to be honest I didn't adequetly describe the issue - I'll add another point to explain.

I do like the buildings that grant different unit types (rather than just more defenders) and have added it. I don't think they additionally require levels with starting double hp.

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 2

This is good the way it is.  Level caps suck, and we don't need 'em.  Once you start capping, you can't stop.  Regular units capped at 5 is a sick joke.

End of mqpiffle's quote

It is not a joke! Many peasants had to die to bring you this information! Seriously though, I think you are too caught up in the idea of 'levels' as apposed to 'unit strength'. If levels could grant a bonus to attack, defense, str, or initiative that units level of power increases considerably beyond simply having more health.

Additionally I listed both hard/soft caps. This could be done by reducing xp gained per combat, removing the ability to earn passive xp after a certain level, or a combination of the two. There could be a soft cap of 5 and a hard cap of 8 for example. Or there could be no hard cap, but increasily reduced xp gains.

Fyi every game so far I have played so far has been entirely composed of my soveriegn and champions (4 pre .77, 1 post). In any case even without 'all' champions, stacking them together causes some serious balancing issues with the way xp is distributed.

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 3
Another thing about high level trouncing low levels : add some "fatigue" mechanic. Each time you do anything you get 1 more fatigue point. each fatigue point reduce every roll you do by 1. Only "skip turn" without doing anything would help you getting rid of the fatigue (or some spells or some traits that would help you ignore the first fatigue point or get your fatigue back faster, etc.)
End of vieuxchat's quote

I'm not sure I like a fatigue mechanic. I was pretty pissed when I had to expend moves to attack multiple armies on the same tile in 'War of Magic'. If the issue is that your army can attack too many units at once, perhaps it's the maximum moves need looking into or being able to use enemy roads.. I suppose you could take away an army's ability to move after it attacked. Allowing you to hold a position, but not chase multiple enemies down. I think I'll need some more info on this one ^^;

 

In any case, thanks for the feedback! Keep it comin!

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree completely - my games so far consist of 4 hero units with spells and high initiative fireballing whatever they want round one. Mixed with the trait that gives you +3 mana per kill on my sovereign, I actually gain mana every battle (the bigger the battle, the more mana). This is clearly broken. There is no city I can't walk into, fireball 2 or 3 times, and win without the enemy even moving. 

Besides the obvious fireball/blizzard + quick (or whatever gives you +10 initiative for the 1st round of combat) abuse, heroes need some looking into. 

1. Good idea. Exp should be split. 

2. No level caps - sloppy hack to fix broken underlying mechanic.

3. Maybe limit the number of champions per army? Maybe have traits that let you combine them, maybe under the governor trait tree? I agree with you and not mqpiffle, all champion armies are by far the most powerful thing in the game.

4. Your suggestions are really good. Maybe if more experienced units are stationed with rookies, they can 'teach' them, by increasing the exp modifier of the town. 

5. Stacks should only have so many slots for units. Once it is full, you need to start another one. 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting bentheman939, reply 5

5. Stacks should only have so many slots for units. Once it is full, you need to start another one. 
End of bentheman939's quote

I'm not sure I understand this one. Do you mean army size? There is a limit to that of 5 that increases up to 9 with techs. Not that I see any unleveled (same-tech) force threatening a city any time soon, but the army limitation does already exist, even if your 8 move stack of champion doom makes it irrelevant.

Did you mean something else?

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I think it would help if the sovereign and every champion gets one talent (+ 5 attack to all units if only one hero is in the party, + 5 defense to all units if only one hero is in the party, + 2 initiative to all units if only one hero is in the party or + 2 move to all units if only one hero is in the party) for free to encourage less heroes in an army.

Every profession and talent with + x per level should be replaced by + 3.

Fireball and blizzard should be split into two different spells:

 

Scorching ray:

Level 2 fire spell

Affects all units in every square in a straight line

6 damage (+ 3 per fire shard) if the target does not resist and half damage if the target resists

 

Fireball:

Level 3 fire spell

Affects a single unit per square within a 1 square radius

8 damage (+ 4 per fire shard) if the target does not resist and half damage if the target resists

 

Cone of cold:

Level 3 water spell

Affects all units in the square in front of the hero and in the three squares behind the first square

6 damage (+ 3 per water shard) if the target does not resist and half damage if the target resists

 

Blizzard:

Level 4 water spell

Affects a single unit per square within a 2 square radius

8 damage (+ 4 per water shard) if the target does not resist and half damage if the target resists