CdrRogdan

Join Date 04/2009

+23

[Suggestion] Remove the Civilization tech tree

I'm very likely to get flak for this from our builder-oriented players, but hear me out for a second.

What exactly is the purpose of the civilization tech tree? Asuming that you max out the tree, what benefit do you gain from doing so? Faster research of the other trees? You can't exactly win via alliance with no standing army, nor can you front an army using camps as they are limited in the number you can build. Unless the camp building limit is removed this tree is nothing more than a crutch to bypass the rediculous research times.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not proposing a removal of buildings and technology that improve empire management. That part is both fun and required to prevent technology from spiraling out of control at the begining of the game. What I am proposing is to instead link the appropriate techs/buildings to their respective trees. That is to say the magic tree should link up with diplomatic capital, camps and research buildings. The warefare tree should link up with production, food and gildar.

You are certainly free to decide to dip into either one of these and the decision behind which of the various techs within each tree you choose still remains, the difference is that you aren't specifically researching technology to research technology to research technology...

The secondary issue with this is that long term planning with the civilization tree can span 100 turns or more. That is a little too long. A 20 or even 40 turn decision to pick up a military tech is more reasonably within a human's ability to plan. I'm prepared to lay out a much wider (and needed) magic technology tree to get this started, but I thought I would get some feedback first.

Am I missing something? There doesn't seem to be any reason to max out this tree other than to help max out the other trees.

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mqpiffle

Join Date 10/2010

+44

I would personally vote for one tree with three separate main branches.

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I agree that civ needs fixed, even though I don't think removal is needed. I've noticed that I have to get to mining, have to get some gold production, etc... early in every game. I would make basic techs (no research required) that allow a minimal level of civ sufficiency so I have a real option to specialize. Every game I feel it is mandatory to at least take a few civ techs to get started. If a player has to do it first every game, it isn't really a good design.

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Quoting ,

quoting post

That is to say the magic tree should link up with diplomatic capital, camps and research buildings. The warefare tree should link up with production, food and gildar.

Warfare linked to the production, food and gildar? Aren't those precisely the reasons for a Civic tree? (Alliance stuff is a relocation from the Diplomacy tree in WoM)

"Sergeant! I need a Pub asap and I need it for yesterday!"

"Sir! Yes, sir!"

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No... why? I see no reason for this...

The consolidation into three tech trees is fine. Perhaps techs need to be switched around, or whatever, but reducing this further to two tech trees is entirely unnecessary.

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I see this as a good indicator that the Civic Tree is stifled. It should have quests, traits, wonders, different paths for different city strategies, more diplomatic options (like sharing maps), bonuses to trade, upgrades for improvements, and maybe a few random event triggers. Right now it seems lackluster. You only really need a few of the early ones.

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I think it's good to have the civic tree so that you're forced to choose between empire growth or military/magic growth, but I do agree that the civics tree is... boring right now. It could use some more interesting techs.

There's also other discussions on the forums about cities in general - they're pretty boring right now, and the civics tree is part of that.

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It could possibly use some changes but to outright get rid of it is wrong.

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Lol, I was just thinking that the magic tree could be rolled in to other 2 and gotten rid of. But I think that is more about my research priorities than anything else.

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Not sure if this would be considered the proper thread but I wouldn't mind some ("Tech Tree" specific) buildings that only add research for one tech tree. Like having a War Academy giving bonus to research but only when you are researching Warfare stuff (and in addition, it could give a small amount of experience to the units trained there but that is just brainstorming).

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1. Keep the civilization tech tree

2. Agreed, that the civilization tech tree needs more branches to give players more choices as does the magic tree - i.e. branches to more books of magic. Research and unlock a book, further advancement is based on applying traits to advance in that book.

3. Like Wintersong's idea of tech tree specific buildings - War Academy that gives bonus to war research and Science Academy that gives bonus to non-economic civilization research and Tower of Magic that gives bonus to magic research.

4. Let techs give access to new unit traits/combat orders

5. Let experience give access to new combat orders (aka" Defend"). Currently combat units can assume "Defend" position to boost defense. Would like more tactical options in combat.

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I think it is fine now. I like the classic 'guns or butter' split, but I also like that there are some cross over techs such as black smithing.

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Can we set a tech to prevent the research of another?

It would be cool to have multiple paths in the Civic Tree for specific bonuses to resources.

Have alot of gold but need some more labor? Go the slaver route!

Have a capitol that doesn't have enough grain to get to level 5? Go the farmer route!

If these are mutually exclusive techs, you will have to choose the path that will best support your strategic situation.

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

I like this idea! If not possible now, I'd love for it to be made possible later (but not too much later ).

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Quoting G30ffnet,

reply 8

Lol, I was just thinking that the magic tree could be rolled in to other 2 and gotten rid of. But I think that is more about my research priorities than anything else.

I'm similar from another direction. I feel magic itself could be fleshed out with new summon options and multi-element prerequisite spells and who knows what else, and questing and recruiting could probably be folded into civ. After all, drawing luminaries and champions in probably has more to do with the state of your civilization than it does your ability to enchant a +2 stave of buttkicking or call a storm. Likewise with uncovering new quest options.

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Quoting Wintersong,

reply 3

"Sergeant! I need a Pub asap and I need it for yesterday!"

"Sir! Yes, sir!"

Hahaha! That probably isn't too far off.. and I would have definately recommended placing pubs in with forts ^^

The 'Warfare' tech tree is just a name though and I'm certainly open to changing that name to better reflect it's purpose if necessary. Again the issue here isn't that I disagree with the growth of cities being staggered with technology, just the the civic tree's only purpose is to research/produce/grow, but doesn't actually have anything to utilize that production/growth.

Civilization (the game) gets away with this because you research growth techs to get to other military techs, and the staggering of technology is controlled that way, while still providing the option of resarching growth vs military at certain branches.

I do like the idea of research/production buildings affecting only a certain tree of technology, but what I would really like is a more unique role between the trees. That is to say..

The magic tree could provide summoned units, mana and shard producing buildings and unlock city affecting spells

The warfare tree could provide free support for units (rather than straight gildar) as well as 'scientist' type units

The civlization tree could lift the limit on camp constructed units!

As it is now, there is no 'specialization' There is: research the civilization tree far enough that you feel you don't need it then research other things that are useful.

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Honestly, I think removing the Civilization tech tree would be a mistake and would weaken the game. I believe that it's fine the way it is but could possibly use some improvements and adjustments but nothing this major.

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If anything we just need a 4th tech tree again to me more like Alpha Centauri.

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I wonder how soon they plan on making changes to improvements. I get the feeling that the changes will be less significant than most of the community hopes. As long as they make things good enough to get people to enjoy the game long enough to want to buy the expansion I'll be satisfied. I mod in the features I want.

How ironic that I, the user, am cynically calculating sales while the devs just want it to be a good game.

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Quoting seanw3,

reply 18

I get the feeling that the changes will be less significant than most of the community hopes. As long as they make things good enough to get people to enjoy the game long enough to want to buy the expansion I'll be satisfied. I mod in the features I want.

This is my #1 fear as well. I'm scared that they'll get too used to the way many features are implemented to improve them in necessary ways.

At least this is just the first beta, but it plays really close to gold. This is good, in that the game as-is is actually fairly fun, but it's bad insofar as it feels as though much of the game is in a fixed state...

That said, you're right with the last two sentences--not everything, I guess, has to be absolutely 100% perfected, just spectacular enough that players will want to keep up with the franchise and mod the game to further perfection.

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Quoting seanw3,

reply 18

There were 5 tech trees in WoM and Derek cut them down to 3. I like the other way too, but the diplomacy tree and the adventure tree were the same cost as any other without as much usefulness. Let's not forget how much more balanced this tree is. We have come a long way from then 5 tech I win strategy.

I wonder how soon they plan on making changes to improvements. I get the feeling that the changes will be less significant than most of the community hopes. As long as they make things good enough to get people to enjoy the game long enough to want to buy the expansion I'll be satisfied. I mod in the features I want.

How ironic that I, the user, am cynically calculating sales while the devs just want it to be a good game.

Agreed completely. I miss the old tech trees (explore and adventure) but they honestly didn't warrant standing on their own and I believe they implemented/merged them well in FE.

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