Ego and the skinning community

When I got to work on Monday morning, my coworkers were talking about how nasty the WinCustomize MB was that day and I learned about being called a "Nazi".

Over the weekend, I had been called names by dozens of people over in discussions on DeviantART. Jier began the festitivities by responding to Skin Primer that I wrote, on my own time mind you, for the community. For that effort, Jier called me "worthless" and said I was worse than Sam (the guy who owns eFront). Jier finished by saying he was going to dedicate himself to making freeware equivalents of everything in Object Desktop.

Bear in mind, Jier is supposed to be one of those "respected" members of the community. This isn't some random guy behaving like that. This is the guy who runs 545 Studios.

Then he went on to critique my article on XP skinnning (https://www.stardock.com/stardock/articles/xpskinning.html). Amongst accusing me of lying, he fabricated a story that I had made claims that were untrue and created a thread on DA called "545 vs. Stardock". After quite a number of people came on proclaiming how awful they think I am (with a few people standing up for me at least) but with more people trying the moral equivalence angle which as people at the office knows, really bugs me. In most arguments, somebody is right and somebody is wrong (or at least more right than the other). Jier was wrong. Dead wrong. Completely wrong.

Meanwhile, l0c used his high access here to post a news item here. His access here allows his news submissions to bypass moderation. His news item accused TGTSoft of commiting a crime. This could be considered libel. And it became more obvious how much of a problem the news item was when the anti-Stardock contigency made the valid point that it sure looks bad having a Stardock owned site have a news item that accuses a competitor of a criminal act. So I responded and said that I would be deleting the news item in a few hours if there were no objections. A few hours later I did.

So then I woke up the next day to hear about being called a Nazi by l0c - Jier's roommate.

What would people have me say in response? I felt that a line had been crossed. And usually I could see the other person's point of view even if I don't agree with it. But this was beyond that. l0c, like Jier, was wrong.

I didn't know what to say in response. When adding up all the crap from over the weekend I needed a couple of days of introspection. Every virtual community has its own character.

For instance, the warez site that has been sending the rather nasty people to our site attacking us has a lot of really awful human beings on it. People who just don't abide by the ethical or moral standards that we take for granted. And I don't say that lightly. It was like a mirror universe of our community.

Or at least, I'd always assumed that our community was made up of generally good people. Sure, Paxx and myself might debate some point. Or Plastic and I may have a different perspective. But at the end of the day, a difference in opinion doesn't mean a difference in integrity.

Which brings me back to the post. By the time I got in, it was too late to just delete it without people seeing it. So I had to decide whether to defend myself or remain silent. Obviously the latter choice was the one I went with.

The "community" can be identified by a collection of discrete actions. The regulars define it. How would the community respond to something that was so blatently wrong?

Someone asked how I have been personally handling the abuse I've received of late. Well I'm human. For a moment I really wasn't sure if this "community" was something I wanted to be part of.

Take a step back for a moment. Shoggot asked, who hasn't done something really nasty during their years? I'd like to think most of the people I'd consider friends would never create a new post on one of our skin sites that existed soley to hurt someone else. I don't think most of you would.

What kind of community do we want to be? Arguing issues or disagreeing on things is normal. But some things are wrong. Some things are bad. Deeds considered acceptable by the community reflect on that community.

Our community doesn't accept warez on its sites for instance. That reflects well on us(I think anyway). And I'd like to think we don't accept people calling other people "worthless" or "Nazis" or worse. Or hopefully we don't accept trying to argue moral equivalence, that someone the person being attacked might have somehow deserved of this.

The good news seems to be that most people don't accept that. Certainly not here anyway. And our community is more united than it appears on the surface. The relationship between the admins of DeviantART and WinCustomize is extremely close.

But there is also a clash of cultures in our community. You could almost call it a fundamentalist movement within it that is ugly and nasty and it I think we just witnessed for the first time a clear rejection of it. That no one, regardless of who they think they are has the right to make viscious personal attacks on other members of the community.

I hope this incident lets us turn the corner, that civility will be considered a defining virtue as much as how many skins we make, or how much software we make.

Let me say as a software developer that being a software developer doesn't make me or any other developer more important or better than the skin authors or people who write FAQs or help people on the groups. We are all important parts of the community and we all deserve respect.

That's my little novel for the night.



12,310 views 29 replies
Reply #1 Top
well... that about sums it up.

and this is an excellent thought...
"I hope this incident lets us turn the corner, that civility will be considered a defining virtue as much as how many skins we make, or how much software we make."

I think we're all ready for that.
Reply #2 Top
Just reading through what I wrote, it's not quite as coherent as I had hoped but hopefully people get the gist of it.
Reply #3 Top
Seemed relatively coherant to me. I mean I understood what you were saying
Reply #4 Top
So we all now know the complete plot details for Star Wars Episode II. That's good. I wasn't sure I got that across.
Reply #5 Top
Brad what are you worrying about? you got across to everyone just fine! look everyone went to sleep! hehe

which is where I'm going for my two hour sleep shift, and reading this really helped me zzZZzzZ



Reply #6 Top
All made sense to me...
Reply #7 Top
I'm very glad to have read this. I just got back from being away from my PC for several days, and came on the boards to catch up. The first post my eyes fell across was the one that started this whole mess, and I was weary that I didn't see a response from you to the obvious personal attacks made against you, and the support those attacks got from a few members of this community.

I went through something very similar to this a few weeks ago on another board (where I'm a *much* more active member). I was the recipient of personal attacks for an opinion I had on something. I feared that the board would quickly deteriorate into some sort of horrible bash-fest, which scared me since I was one of its founding members and cared greatly about its disposition.

As it turned out, though, what happened was a polarization of sorts. First, several members of the board rushed to my defense, and themselves got flamed by the few who had started the name-calling. When I composed myself enough to respond (i.e., when my blood-pressure fell back down to acceptable levels), I did so, in as calm and rational a manner as I was capable of. My failure to jab back at those who attacked me seemed to incense them even further, and it just went on for several days. Finally, enough of the members spoke out against their behavior that they shut up, and several of them left.

What resulted was a much stronger sense of community there. The rules were more clearly defined; no one had to guess anymore at what was acceptable and what wasn't. And through it all we all realized that our vision of what that board was supposed to be had also been more clearly defined, and we were all much happier with what it had become.

Judging from your response, and from the responses to it, I think it's likely that the same thing will happen here. And perhaps that's what this place really needs: a more strongly defined sense of what the "community" is all about. And maybe *that's* the corner we'll turn.

Anyway, I just wanted to say you have my support, not just in your actions and responses concerning this matter, but in the maturity and presence of mind you've shown throughout this situation. I know how tempting it can be to "hit back", and how much more effective it is to keep a cool head.


Reply #8 Top
Read it in 6 parts. Took a break for 15 minutes each time. Much like when I read Lord of the Rings.

The story was exactly the same as what I have read on the net and what I have seen. No missing parts. Was good to read it all in one coherent piece.
Reply #9 Top
I was going to say something, but it slipped. Umm, let's toss in some Words of Wisdom then: "because of its virtualness, the Net has a far lower threshold of speaking out opinions than the physical world. Were I to call someone an idiot on the street, I'd probably get smacked. But I can safely do it online, for no one can get me there, no need to think my actions over".

By the way, does the "ego" in this thread's title stand for you (ego = I) or self-centeredness of people?
Reply #10 Top
Crae...they are one and the same thing...
Reply #11 Top
I don't really know what to say, since everyone else has said it, but I figured I'd show my support here.. don't worry Frogboy, the majority of WC thinks you're cool.

In fact at the store the other day, Juni and I saw the Corporate Machine. We were like little schoolkids jumping up and down and saying "Hey we know that guy! He's cool!"

Anyway, I just wanted to show my support here.
Reply #12 Top
/me harbors fond hopes that now this place can now start to return to the warm and nurturing place it was then i first encountered it
Reply #13 Top
I agree. And all communities are different. Especially on-line ones. I've been observing the message board of a warez (well not anymore) that Stardock's legal had to deal with for posting links to full versions of everything we make.

The people on there are so vile and so hateful (at least the vocal regulars) that it's almost unbelievable. Nearly every post is full of profanity, threads of violence, graphics.

Their primary moderator created an animated GIF that is a little guy with a sign that says "I hate Stardock" and gives people the finger. This is a board admin mind you. And he created a post called "I encourage everyone to do this".

That's why I think what we have here is special. The people in the skin community, and particularly the regulars are good, honest, ethical people.
Reply #17 Top
Just wait until I rule the world (that's on my Christmas list this year )

I'm going to forbid aggression. We'll all have so much repressed anger, it'll be out of control.
Reply #18 Top
JavaBrain - thinks Feline is just looking for a leg to rub on

that, plus a nice warm lap to sleep on, and a well trained human who knows just the right places to scratch

and of course chocolate!!!

/me wonders if JavaBrain is offering
Reply #19 Top
LittleBe:
Just wait until I rule the world (that's on my Christmas list this year )

I'm going to forbid aggression. We'll all have so much repressed anger, it'll be out of control.

as long as you can present a suitable plan for dealing with all this repressed energy (perhaps chocolate pills?) then i may be convinced to lend you the world for a while

/me admires my certificate of world domination / ownership
Reply #20 Top
Frogboy - That's why I think what we have here is special. The people in the skin community, and particularly the regulars are good, honest, ethical people.

that is what was really nice about this place when it first appeared. there were friendly people, no great weight of history, and no active minefields to try and dodge.

it significantly lowered the *issues* with entry, making it a very attractice place to hang out. having got the feel of the place and settled in i feel that i am in a more solid position to ride out the storms.

healthy debate, even if it is a little unbalanced is one thing, and adds character to the place. what look like personal vendeta's ripping the place appart are a totaly different thing, and personally i would love to see the back of them.

/me wishes more people could learn to distingush between people's opinions and the people them selves

people should be respected as people, even if you have differing opinions. i mean, its no good me taking issue with people just because they are the wrong species, it is hardly their fault
Reply #21 Top
Missed this one, wanted to stay out of anything really, but agree too much to stay quiet. If I even got a fight with frogboy/stardock, it's decent (may not have been that way on my part initially, but I've grown to respect...), different perspective indeed. So I didn't have a hard time figuring out the bad and less bad , this time. Can understand everybody calling anybody anything (even that), but need some foundation for hatred, can't find it...

Integer sums it up for me (valid points, though some expressed a bit heated), but with my personal appreciation of frogboy added, I guess.

[Oh whatever, you WC dedicated (only) people problably not knowing me anyway . Felt maybe a little token from the other side (can you disable them smilies, now a really weird grin on my face...), would be appreciated. Felt the urge to defend you these last days, frogboy. Didn't do so, a whole squadron turned up to do so, but keeping silent didn't feel good either... so why not here...]
Reply #22 Top
GAH!, This is the last thing im going to post on this topic, And only to dfend myself for things you claim i've said:

First of all, I never called you "worthless" you more than likely have me confused with someone else on the DA message board. You might want to go do a CTRL+F on the page, Your making an ass out of yourself by not getting your story right.

So what if i compared you to sam? Its true, I know you care more about the money than you do the community, So did Sam.

Im not speaking for l0c, But i find it pretty funny how he coded the message board you are using to make him look bad, FOR FREE i might add.

Thats all i have to say.
Reply #23 Top
jier's credibiliy continues to dive...

>>In response to Brad'sSkin primer as a news item on DeviantART<<

Quote:
Deviant: ~jier (65.170.14.*)
Date: 2001-10-19 13:24:59

what the fuck is this shit? not saying a thing about 545, LDI, soft ini?, i cant wait till 545 is back up, im making it my mission to make a FREE app for every ting stardock makes.. not just me but all te other freeware developers i can find.. your worthless brad.. and stardock is worse than efront

.:: jier :: 545 Studios :: Returning soon... to a Desktop near you ::.

Reply #24 Top
Well jier l0c didn't need froggie's help to look bad. He did a wonderful job making himself look bad. Oh and hey, a liar needs a good memory you know. Judging by Tandis's post above it didn't take you long to forget your own words.

I swear some people if given enough rope will hang themselves. Others will steal rope in order to do it.
Reply #25 Top
ho ho ho jier caught in a fib.