Is it hard to get past the technological speak of this (starting from first principles), but it does look like it is counter free-market.  Giving OEM providers, paid by MS to do the logo thing, the choice of which devices they allow is really anti-competitive.

What is the answer to this challenge?  Not buy Windows 8?

Best regards,
Steven.

I'm sure the EU will have something to say about it

The entire idea stinks big time, MS, and while my voice may only be one, soon there will be a whole chorus of voices telling you where to shove Win 8... and it'll be where the sun don't shine.  

The more I read about Win 8 the less I like it... so it's very doubtful it'll ever appear on my shopping list

Software vendors have always offered incentives for bulk sellers. This is why you can go over to Dell for example and spec out an identical Windows box and FreeDOS box and they'll have the same price; Microsoft and preload vendors provide significant subsidies. As long as the demand is there and buyers are willing to pay for the choice, they'll continue to offer it.

OEMs make many choices as to what they will and won't support in their systems, in terms of both firmware (what BIOS options are available) and hardware (limited or non-existent expansion options, etc). Mass-market OEM machines very frequently only have the bare minimum needed to support the particular model's specs and whatever at-purchase expansion options they offer; aftermarket expandability isn't really something they care about.

If you have specific needs, it's your responsibility as a consumer to educate yourself on the product you're buying to ensure it meets those needs, because mass market products will always have certain limitations and design choices to cater to the target cost and market segment. If you know you need to tow heavy loads, you wouldn't just buy a random car without checking how much tow capacity the transmission has, would you?

I could likewise walk into a Mexican restaurant and demand they sell me a hamburger. It's all food, they sell food, why do they get to say I can't have one? Or maybe that's silly to expect and I should just go to the burger shop next door.

It's their choice what to offer for sale; you can ask they sell a particular product with particular specifications, but they're not under any obligation to do so. If a particular vendor does not offer a product that meets your needs and refuses reasonable requests to change their offerings, take your business elsewhere. It goes for both computers and ice cream that there are plenty of other places to buy, and if nothing else you can always get the ingredients and make your own.

The only case that this will really pose any issue is for casual Linux adoption (which is why Red Hat and such object), but that's an edge case and not anything remotely approaching the norm. The great majority of consumers never want, need, or care to change their OS in any case other than a direct upgrade.

Which is pretty much what I said way back in.....oh .... post #5 ....;)

Meanwhile....the sky....it doth fall.....;p

Especially when they own 90% of the market. "Choice"? I could find other terms.

And until people demand more, that will continue. Which is why FSF is saying that... losing Linux would be a loss.

Until people demand it. They won't do that until they know what's happening... sort of the reason I posted this topic.

Agreed to a point. You would expect a Doctor to lay out your treatment options if you had problem X, correct? By your logic, you would need to go become a Doctor first... or research things you know nothing about. That brings up the 'trust factor', doesn't it? Your way, the OEM has no responsibility to the buyer. I simply reject that idea. How can one know all the possibilities the OEM has? Only if they are revealed. There is little if any transparency in the current system. Time to change that.

Another reason I'm posting this. Kryo - how many people settle for less because they didn't know more existed?

Not relevant to my example. One expects to be able to customize ice cream, not change the menu, kryo.

Unless enough people know enough, right? Power of demand... supply should want to meet it. Unless there are restrictive forces at work.

Because they don't know or understand what's out there. Why not just surrender to MS and blindly accept what they and the OEM's in their infinite wisdom decide is good for you and 'what you need'?

If people understand what's being done and say 'Who cares?', that's one thing. If choices are being made for them without their knowledge that's quite a different matter... again the reason for this post.

There are already options available for people who demand such things--simply buy from a vendor or builder who does make such considerations, or build your own. There is nothing stopping you from buying a machine that suits your needs, you just need to be aware of those needs and buy it from a vendor who sells such things.

Not a valid comparison. Medical care is not a ready-made, mass market good; the product *is* the doctor's service and expertise.

Having transparency as to what the products sold do and don't contain (which is always good) is not the same thing as requiring that mass-market vendors offer all potential options, rather than allowing them to choose what they sell based on market forces.

It's exactly the same thing, just exaggerated so it becomes more obvious. Either fudge syrup and nuts are on the menu or they aren't. If they aren't, "we only have plain ice cream" is a perfectly reasonable policy. Sure, you can ask them to add it to the menu, but if you're the only customer who likes fudge and nuts, why should they be obligated to add it and have that extra stock rotting on the shelf?

If someone is buying a mass-market OEM machine, they've already accepted that in doing so.

Happens every day in every part of life and has for all time. If you want to make all the choices yourself, find someone who is willing to work with your needs or do it yourself. If you're not willing to do that, you can't always expect to find a pre-built solution that matches all of your ideals.

^sigh. I'll never convince him, and vice versa. Together with that, kryo - not everyone is as knowledgeable as you re computers... certainly not I. That doesn't mean what's happening is right.

Let this suffice:

Doesn't make it right, nor desirable. Quite the opposite, in this case. Paternalism is never an answer for dealings between adults.

People need to know what they're doing, and how to demand better or, "vote with their feet".

Hazards of living in a mass-market consumer society. "If you want it done right, do it yourself" is as true as it has ever been.

That's exactly what I've been saying: Be aware of what you need, what you're buying, and who sells it, and you'll have no problems. The options are out there, but if you have special needs you have to know what you're looking for.

On the other hand, if a consumer can't be arsed to be cognizant of his own needs, he shouldn't expect them to be reliably met by a blindly-purchased mass-market product.

People don't want to know. People don't really care. Does it work? Does it do what they need it to do? That's the extent of it.

Think they really care if they can install another OS on it? Do they really buy an iPad because they don't care if they can install another OS on it? They buy an iPad because it does what an iPad does. People buy a laptop with a Word Processor and Internet Access because it has a word processor and internet access.

What you seem to think is that everyone wants or needs to really know everything they own or will buy. They don't. My fiance doesn't need to know anything about computers to want one that will let her do her writing on it. She just needs to be able to buy one that lets her do her writing on it. Linux, Windows, upgrades with anything, OSX, none of that matters. Only that it does what she needs it to do. Her choice came down to a Linux and a Windows netbook. She picked the Windows one because... it had a better keyboard.

The people that DO care, will vote with their feet. There are people that won't buy an iPhone because you can't do certain things with it... Oh wait that goes back to the original argument. They are looking at features, and picking based on that.

Well there are hard core nerds that want to be able to upgrade... No that's a feature.

Basically, don't think that people need to care about more about something than they already do. It leads to saying things like "The iPhone will fail because it's a closed system that doesn't allow XYZ".

All the more reason for people to build their own... or have someone build it for them.  The trouble with that is, however, people are often their own worst enemies.... in that they don't want to wait a day or two for it to be completed and test-run, etc.  In many cases, and I've seen it at my local PC store, which refuses to sell proprietary brand, pre-built computers, people WILL NOT WAIT.  If they can't rip it off the shelf, plug it in and run it, there's simply no sale.

So Doc, while I see your key points and largely agree with them, OEM's need to lift their game, I also see where Kryo is coming from.... his point being that while the masses live in and accept a mass produced, largely throw away world, where it just works and no more, nothing much is going to change.  In other words, if we as a society have accepted mediocrity as the standard, then we get exactly what we deserve.

I build my own computers because I refuse to accept mediocrity when it comes to my PC's.  I may not have the absolute best, fastest machine around, but I do have something that more than meets my needs and then some.  More to the point, I'm not limited or restricted by an OEM design that does not allow for expansion, customisation, upgrading... and I'm not tied to a customer support base that's usually overseas and manned by people I can barely understand.

My very first computer was a Compaq with no upgrade opportunities whatsoever, so when I found it struggling to run the XP upgrade over 98, I decided it would be the last prebuild I ever owned.  My next machine was built for me by my regular tech guy, a P4 based rig, as I recall, but ever since then I've built my own, not to mention several rigs for family members, because they too refused to accept mediocrity when made aware of what is available outside the OEM's.

This may of been said already, but can't you just run Virtual PC from Win8 and run an ISO disk image of an older OS?  Who knows, maybe Virtual PC will no longer be compatible with the new OS.

Anyway, I for one am NOT joining on the Windows 8 bandwagon.  I bought both Vista & 7 on the first day of their respective releases, and encountered many driver issues and such.  I've learned my lesson.  I won't buy Windows 8 for a long time, if at all.

And what about Stardock Software?  If SD's software won't run on Win8, or it becomes restrictive and featureless, then the hell with Win8.

I for one will not conform and become a "clone" like most mainstream consumers today.  I may of bought my machine from a local Brick and Mortar chain, but I upgraded the crap out of it; with a Solid State Drive, multiple LED lit fans, and even a new power supply.  Any OS that won't allow customization is dead to me!

I too bought Vista and Win 7 on their respective release days, and I had very few problems with Vista [just my printer drivers] and no problems with Win 7.  In fact, Win 7 pretty much installed everything I needed right off the cuff, so there was no need to go hunting down drivers, etc.  However, whether or not Win 8 installs everything like 7 did, I still very much doubt I'll be updating to it... on release day or any soon thereafter.

That Metro abomination by default completely canceled any though I 'may' have had regarding the next OS from MS.... and with MS beginning to behave like Apple, with its locking of software to specific hardware, the attraction faded fast into obscurity.  Okay, it may only be tied to the OEM's hardware/motherboards right now, but once they get away with that and sales don't suffer too dramatically, there's nothing to say the practice won't spread to non-OEM hardware/mobos.

It is claimed this measure is for security purposes, but anyone who believes that will also believe the tooth fairy will leave them money if they leave their old dentures under the pillow.   For mine, this is an attempt to be Apple, and I hope the anti-trust people nail them to the wall on this one.

I couldn't agree more... which is why I try to tell people about these issues and get them to understand that they are having choices made for them that aren't at all necessary nor necessarily the best.

There're no reasons whatsoever for OEM's to make these decisions and are never transparent about what they're choosing nor why.

More freedom of choice won't harm them unless their motives are exclusionary, and then they should be put in their place.

I favor customization, as do you or why would we be here?

The only way to prevent mediocrity is to remove the blinders people are wearing. That hasn't been done in the past by the OEM's, nor is it likely to be done by them in the future unless people demand it.

Hence my support for the FSF.

And I appreciate your efforts.  While you may only be reaching a small part of the world's computing population, one hopes that word of mouth carries the message far and wide, so that OEM's are forced to lift their game.  If it's one thing I cannot stand in a computer, it's mediocrity and below par systems.

I've worked on a few proprietary machines and I have only one word... um, two words for them... effing frustrating.  For the most part, they are a lot of very cheap parts crammed into a not so large box, and when one thing goes, so do several others.  I had the displeasure of trying to fix one of those Acer mini towers for my nephew when something went wrong, and let's just say the only salvageable part was the DVD ROM drive... everything else was burned/shorted out and totally useless.  Why?  Because there was too much cheap crap crammed into way too small a space without adequate ventilation or cooling.  Those things are a PC disaster waiting to happen.

I think the reason for various decision and the lack of transparency is answered in part by the above paragraph.  It is done for cheapness, plain and simple.  The cheapest and nastiest parts are throw them together to make a PC that works, nothing more, nothing less.  How well it works remains to be seen.  For Mr and Mrs Average who just go into some department store and reef one off the shelf, well it probably is good enough ['til it breaks down and Support is somebody they can't understand], but for anyone with half an ounce of expectation that it'll perform half decent, then it will be well below par.... and that's why the OEM's need to be forced into raising their standards.

I do this all the time... that is to advise people to investigate home builds, or a custom build if they have neither the time or ability to do it themselves.  When asked why I explain the pitfalls and restrictions when tied to a OEM build, then I explain the advantages of customisation and upgrade-ability when going with a home/custom build.  I occasionally get the "I can't be bothered with that', but for the most part people like what I say and look into it.... often with my regular PC guy because I recommend him... for the fact that he can do it far cheaper and more professionally than I ever could.

This is exactly the reason I won't buy a Mac of any sort (other than not supporting their Evil Empire ), and since the husband is good with building systems and knows what he wants, this shouldn't be an issue for us. It is sad to see Microsoft attempting this, which is why our household will stay with XP, Vista and 7 for the foreseeable future.

Definitely glad I build my own PC's or have them built.

Funny, I thought Google was/is the Evil Empire.... with MS running a very close second.

Anyhow, that's not the reason I haven't bought a Mac.   Despite the Oz dollar being above parity with the greenback, Mac units here in Australia can still retail up to 20% - 25% more than in the US, depending on where one shops  A Mac Mini, for example, starts at $699 here, whereas in the US it retails from $499.  A 21" iMac MC309LL/A  here in Oz starts at $1399, yet the same unit in the US starts at $1199.  That's big a difference and too rich for me, so until Apple treats its Aussie customers on an equal par with its US customers I will not consider an Apple computer.

Yeah, for $1949 I could build myself a PC with all top-end components that would more than rival any Mac, so as much as I'd like to try one out, the price tag puts one on my very low priority list at this time.  Besides, I've already spent my computer budget for this year and much of next when I recently upgraded.

I don't know if I'm the only one seeing this, but for mine, Microsoft is making a de-facto grab for hardware... and thus greater control over users and what they do.  Since the anti-trust case that separated Microsoft's interests in software and hardware, it cannot physically manufacture hardware, but this venture would be the next best thing... for MS, that is. 

The attempt to disguise this as a security measure is plain bullshit in my book, and just a way of making it more palatable to industry watchers and users alike.  For mine, new PC technology should be about enabling greater choices, not restricting them, and for that very reason I sincerely hope that the anti-trust people look into this development with a view to blocking it.  If I want to dual boot on my own, fully paid for, hardware, that should be my choice, not MS' or anyone else's.

Not true anymore.  Apple mac books allow for dual boot and have an easy setup to handle it now. So this is something totally unique.  Before if you were running the old macs where the chip set was not intel or amd then I could see this, but now nowadays.

There is a petitiion  going around to force manfacturers to include the dual boot function in the BIOS mandatory for all machines, so that us who need it have the option.

The reason it's so important is when an OS gets old if the machine is good you can still run free distibution software like ubuntu on it, Which is exactly what I've done to my old windows 2003 server and it runs like a charm, a new fan and some heat sinks an OS with a smaller foot print saved me thousands.  

Screw that.  Win 8 will not being running in my home unless I need one for work.

Well, well.

There you go.... Too bad I haven't seen one yet. 



Ah....but WAS true for the majority of Apple's existence....which is one good reason they're [still] an insignificant player in the PC business...;p

With this stunt from MS, however, we shall see a closing of that gap as Apple's market share increases on the backlash.

I'll bet Bill Gates rues the day he handed over all MS operations to Ballmer and co.... because they're digging MS' grave with a number of iffy decisions.

Not in the mobile market, though (MS has fallen flat, there)... and a big part of that market share is price (they are very expensive), as well as the original licensing from IBM...

Yes, but then it is a new and different technology field for MS, and when looking at Apple's successes with the iPhone. Microsoft is a very late starter and has considerable ground to make up.... against not only Apple but Blackberry; Samsung; Nokia and etc... not to mention Google's Android.

Again, though, it comes down to the decisions Microsoft makes, and given its recent form without Bill Gates at the helm, it would seem some of those decisions have not been the best... with butt ugly Metro being the default GUI for Win 8 as clear evidence of that, not to mention the dropping of sidebar gadgets and coding its partners and 3rd party developers have built their businesses on.

I really wouldn't care if Apple significantly increased its PC market share, even to 50% wouldn't be unacceptable, it may help bring down the price of Mac's, but at the same time I hope Microsoft lifts its game and listens more earnestly to its customers.  More to the point, that it does not enforce the draconian 'security' measures that WILL take away [OEM] users choices.   So why do I say this when I build my own/never use OEMs?  Because if Microsoft gets away with this one, there's nothing to stop it introducing measures that would adversely affect me, also... other home PC builders, too.

Damn Win8 is scary lol I think I'll stick to Win7 for a long time till I see a glimpse of hope in the furture.