Ah, the 1099, a way to hire people without benefits, or medical, etc, while the uber-rich push back benefits like social security, etc., and try to get it privatized, so swindling stock manipulating Incs corps get their hands directly on that bit of money as well.  How many more millions of homes must be foreclosed, (2 and 1/2 million in USA not enough?) how many more 'private,' regular pensions must be stolen by banksters and their ideological kin?  The last 30 years have shown Incs' making historically record profits.. yet they need to continually cut wages, benefits, medical while increasing hours, (or forcing part time positions on some  workers - ).  How many people who are not one of two types of people, 1) entrepreneur types, 2) incredibly selfish, inhumane, and heartless SAVAGE CEO/CFO/ directors, Inc groupies, must be sacrificed on the altar of so-called 'free markets?  Corporations are still a device to separate individual profit taking from individual responsibility.    And until ALL stockholders, office holders, and other 'stakeholders' in an INC are PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for the actions of the Inc., the evil aspect of Incs will grow.   

Human beings are capable (metaphorically speaking) of ascending to the highest heights of the heavens, and of descending to the very deepest, nastiest depths of hell.  Incs, by their nature, as a shell game that allows people to make money without being fully responsible for what was done to 'get' that money, feed the evil aspects of human nature.  . Inc structures feed the evil side of humanity by making everyone else, outside your group, a non human entity, you are a market, a consumer, a (probably unemployed) worker, a defaulted mortgage holder, a squatter, a welfare moocher, etc. All the while those same Inc collect obscene wealth, have their 200 dollar bottles of wine at lunch (WOW, they have time to go out and sit down for lunch????), stay in $3,000 dollar a night hotel rooms, etc.   NO ONE IS WORTH THAT MUCH MORE THAN ANOTHER.  Corporations, whose controlling ownership being held a tiny percentage of the national Population, most of it inherited from previous generations, do throw a few crumbs off 'their' table.... but the the crumbs are becoming fewer and smaller. 

Many years ago, charters were give to start corporations for specific tasks.  The charters of ten had a time limit, after which the Inc was dissolved. Let the entrench and they will enslave us.    Very ancient religion  had a very wise idea.  (This same religion had some really horrible moral declarations, but that is another issue).  This religion proclaimed the idea of a jubilee, a year in which all debts became void, and all property was returned to the families that had it 50 years prior.  in other words, NO ONE was allowed to accumulate on and on and on.  

What we need to do is dissolve all corporations by revoking their charters, and start new corporations, each of which has ONE job / task, etc.  No more multi conglomerates / multi nationals that are so big, and complicated that they can continually dazzle with their BS, while they steal little bits from each person among the masses...  Make them 'mom and pop' operations so we all can see who is in charge, where the money goes, etc.   End the equity swapping and all the other economic snake oil.  

BTW, to the person who mentioned China as being communist;  mainland china is not communist - it is a one party demand economy. limited free marketing is only allowed because it attracts massive foreign (western) investment in China's infrastructure.  But, as some 'joint ventures' are discovering, china still controls it all, and can, by government decree, remove directors, etc.   When China has enough military / technological power, they will dispense with the illusion of 'joint ventures.'  What will the Incs' do, try and repossess a Chinese city? LOL.   I think not.  They will probably still get a share of the profits, but not a share of the control.   

Communism hasn't been tried, yet.  Albania, maybe, came close... not sure.  However, many nations have described themselves as communist, or been labeled as communist by others - but real communism, as Karl Mark /Frederick Engles, et el's 'followers' envisioned it has not been tried.  And it probably won't ever be either - too many flaws.  Also, i, too, would not want to live under mainland China's government.  It makes me sick that Wal-mart, while wrapping itself in the American flag, accompained by their drum beat of 'free markets,' has been the primary instrument in giving mainland china what it needs to do the fantastic thing of industrializing 1/6 of humanity in a single generation.  Were they, (the Chinese) a free people, what good they could do.  But they are as controlled by corporations as is the USA, with its two-headed ONE party system.  

Guess i really don't fit into this world... I'm an ALF, too.     Planet Earth to....

Sorry, my literal meter was pegging too high I guess.

hey!  Don't knock the bod unless you got something better to offer!

Currency is just the store of value based upon faith.  Gold has no value (you cannot eat it or wear it or burn it).  So it is just another currency.

No one requires the use of currency who is an island.  You seem to think that man is somehow detached from society.  Iguess at certain times and places that can be true (hermits, mountain men, etc,).  but the Renaissance man is no more as the world has quickly sped beyond the ability of any man to be all knowing.

But you confuse all powerful with empowerment.  I am very much empowered to live my life the way I want (it is easier if you do not want to infringe on other's rights).  If your choice is to have it all or none, there is no help or hope for you.  We each make our own bed to lie in, no matter the excuses we give to others about our victimhood.

True to an extent, and I agree to a large extent but if a person inherits a genetic disease, and suffers terribly from it - is it his fault? Could he choose his parents?

I guess there are just too many victims here.  How could I hire someone to do an 8 hour job on a wage basis?  A w-2 employee has obligations that a 1099 does not.  As a 1099, I do not have to be anywhere, and I chose where I am.  As a w-2, I am obligated by the contract of hire I sign to be certain places at certain times.

And no, there is no lack of "benefits like social security" for 2 reasons.  one is that SS is not a benefit.  You are paying for it.  When you get employed, you only see half of it being taken, but you are paying for all of it (do not kid yourself).  Second, 1099s still have to pay it.  So I fail to see where that is even in the discussion.

I did not talk about privatizing it, nor do I care to get into that here, so again, why the non-sequtur?  And stolen?  Again, if you have lost something, is that my fault?  You agreed to the deal when you signed the employment contract.  As I started out saying, if you do not like the deal, don't do the deal!  That is what is great about this country!  You do not have to!  If someone held a gun to your head, report them!  That is a crime!  if not, why are you blaming everyone else for your poor decisions?

Homes foreclosed?  really, I had no idea that people were forced to buy houses.  It is against the law, report the people holding the guns and doing the forcing!  They will go to jail. But once you agreed to buy the house (note the words ONCE YOU AGREED), you are contractually obligated to hold up your end of the bargain.  How would you like it if you gave someone a loan, and they told you to pound sand when you asked for the money back?

I will not go on as it is evident you want to make this about Big Business and American Society, when my point had more to do with what YOU can do as an individual to empower yourself.  The more you are empowered, the less you have to rely on the kindness (or lack thereof) of others. 

I see where you are going.  I did not say that everyone has the same capabilities.  That would be foolish.  But even the ones who have Cerebral Palsy can chose to either live life as best as they want - or to cry about life's cruel fates.  I would not fault them for being angry and yelling at "god" for dealing them a bad hand, but in the end, I cannot make their life worth living.  Only they can decide that for themselves - or just give up.

Some do, and some don't have that ability.

Capability wasn't the point, responsibility was. There are people who are truly not responsible for the fix they are in.... accept it or not.

Currency is not a store of value, but only a way to negate debt.  With the concept of fractional reserve banking, it effectively has zero value.  What gives the alchemy-laden bank note a false sense of value is faith alone; faith not only on it, but also on the government which prints it, and which also writes the laws that dictate its availability (scarcity) and effectiveness (inflation).

What is society?  Society is a parameter within which pre-determined thoughts and beliefs are accepted -- without even the full knowledge or awareness of the society member.  Man therefore is not detached from society, but conditioned by it.

If you live as a free person, since you say you live how you want, then you are either an island or a willful slave.

-.-

A person who inherits a genetic disease has only the medical establishment to blame.  With the prolongation of life expectancy, many defective genes become inherited.  Furthermore, with the advent of synthetic anti-infective medicines, our genetic code forfeits the opportunity for adaptation where possibly our immune defenses would then confer resistance to infective agents.

Nature determines the life expectancy of man, not man.  Because of man assuming the role of life giver, he has become the master of morbidity and mortality.

We have caused our own suffering.

-.-

if i had to make Iphones i would top myself to. Only kidding. This company needs to closely examine it's working practices as to why their staff are so unhappy.

A  person with a genetic disease should blame the people who keep him alive and in as best health and as comfortable  as they can. That makes sense. On Bizarro world.

Man has never been a life giver. We continue life, we extend life, but for the life of me I can't remember breathing life into a lump of clay of coal.

We have caused a great deal of our own suffering but not because of the reasons you cited. In fact though, if you feel strongly about it, please prevent suffering: Never go to the Doctor or Dentist again. I can support that.

Sounding a little too close to the dog's philosophy of life....if you can't eat it or screw it...you piss on it...;p

'value' to you may be determined by whether something can be eaten, worn or burnt....but in reality even that falls over.  Gold CAN be worn....and has been since its 'discovery'.  And apparently you CAN also eat it....it's used toadorn such banalities as icecream.

Burning it doesn't do a lot other than to allow it to be shaped into all sorts of things [melting/casting] as being a noble metal and soft it's ideal.

I'd be suggesting round about now to find a better analogy....one not quite so full of holes...;)

Being the evil materialist that I am, if anyone wants to unload any of that "worthless" gold just PM me and I'll be more than happy to relieve you of your burden. "Worthless" silver, cash or coin is also welcome... 

Dr. Guy, re: your comments to me:   You may accuse me of crying victim hood all you like, (thats a jump in logic), and a mean spirited dig, (hows that for a jump in logic?).  However, the point I was trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to make was simply this:   the fact they you and your corporate 'friends' and doing fine in this 'economy,' does not necessarily mean the economy is working for all, or even most Americans.  Indeed, it is not.  Your little corner may be all hunky dory, well and good for you.  But remember most people are not enterpreateur (spelling?) types, as apparently, you are.  (More power to you!).  But participation in, and benefiting from systematic economic, political, social, etc. systems that  take advantage of people less intelligent, less educated, born with less family connections, born with less, or no inherited monies, born and reared in homes that are incredibly dis-functional, in part , because the only 'jobs' available are working 2 or 3 part time positions at mininum wage, etc. , does make you partially culpable.  You, and i participate in it.   Playing the individualism card is all fine and good - Horatio Alger myth, etc...  (leaving off that the famous hero of 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' stories, were actually veiled, read between the lines, man-young boy sex stories.)  Anyway, go... cancel all your insurance, tell the fire department, and police, not to come to your home, etc.  Refuse to accept any protection from the sons and daughters of the poor who die in uniform ...  Point is, we all are connected in a vast web of relationships...some obvious, and some not so obvious.  You and I both live in the web.  You state that you and your friends have done well for yourselves.  Bravo.  But what you do affects the rest of us.  What you say, how you vote, etc., all affect the rest of us.  Not as victims, as you (in my opinion, callously) charged me, but as consequences that ripple through the web of life.  

Is your home being foreclosed because you fell for one of those  snake oil mortgage deals disguised as a government 'program.?"  Is the government in the process of trying to 'privatize' your SS, etc., so that, being the simple souls most of us are, we can't make head 'n tail of the complicated legalize and dizzying array of financial products:  and we get screwed?  (or worse, the 'private enterprise/corp that our SS trust fund allotment end up in goes bankrupt, because of insider theft / embezzlement, etc.). Do you support efforts to get the damn feds out of intrusions into the 'so-called free market?   How many more savings and loans must go under because of insider trading and corporate scheming?  How many more banks must be collapsed by insider thieves?  (The people of Iceland did the right thing, you want the money swindled from the Icelandic Bank - that caused it to collapse, go after the corporate thieves, not we citizens / and our public monies.)  

You blithe comment that 'all is fine with me and my corporate friends,' made in the context of this thread, in the context of institutionalized  slavery of foreigners, child laborers,  who make many of the products American corps sell at obscene profits, company store-ism, and blatant in-humane abuse practiced as policy in that (forced) workplace of (Shezhen?) struck me, as rather self centered, if not down right selfish, but definitely callus.  People who don't help you make money, directly, don't matter?  Then you took opportunity to accuse me of playing the victim card.  Well, my corporate friends and I got ours, proves all the rest of you who feel that the economic system is stacked against you are just plain wrong, and if you try to redress it an any collective fashion, or discussing it on a forum with someone who doesn't seem to understand all the connections, you are playing the victim card.  Aren't corporations and political parties collectivized entities?  

 Finally, your comment, 'all is fine with me and my corporate friends,'(who probably pay you more that mininum wage) just came across, to me , as  'I got mine, who the hell cares if I care about anyone else?'  OK, fine.  You and your cabal may have a wonderful life, and you may do very well... but you do so well, in part, on the backs of, via the suffering of, at the expense of, and on the deaths of others whom you do not see becuase they are not living in the house next door.  if you feel striving for 'fair trade' practices is crying 'victim',' so be it.    If you feel my calling attention to your  seemingly  self-absorbed comment,  while using your comment to imply there is nothing wrong with the system of webbed relationships we all participate in, and to justify the ever increasing amounts of wealth accumulating in the top 5% of American families, so be it.  You may consider I am playing victim, but you, sir, came across as a callous, uncaring, selfish "i got mine, (and so do my corporate friends), so screw all of you," kind of person.  OK, screw me, label me a victim.  But you (and I) still benefit disproportionately (apparently you more than I - not that it truly matters) from the systemic, intentional, abuse, suffering, and just plain oppression of others.  These 'others' may not live in your neighborhood.  And, at least for now, the more egregious of these abuses are still, technically illegal, here in the USA. But you and I still benefit from their, to use your label, 'victim-hood,'  from their suffering and deaths.     

i am sure you are a wonderful, 'stand up' kinda guy, very polished, etc.  You are fun at parties, and discuss, eloquently, all sorts of interesting things.   You might even go to Rotary!  And I am sure you lavish your love on your family.  (This is not sarcasm...)  But your callous disregard for the human costs, paid by others in the web of relationships in which we all participate, and from which you benefit disproportionately, truly sickens me.  Your prosperous little corner exists, in part, because of the suffering, and deaths of others with less power, and fewer allies.  But that does not matter, because you don't know me (us) (them) personally, so any benefits you derive, indirectly (via the web of relationships, from me (and other creatures of my ilk) are irrelevant to you.  Such callousness will help transform the nice town in "its a wonderful Life," into a worldwide Pottersville.   

I am so happy you and your corporate friends are doing so well.  (seriously).  Social Darwinism has served you well.  But your callous disregard for others outside your immediate field of vision is very sad, and does not bode well for the rest of us.  Good night and good luck.

I should have said "intrinsic value".  In other words, what is necessary to sustain life.  Beyond that, we assign value based upon our own belief system.  So gold gets a high value because of our belief in it.  So the same with currency.  I love to hear the gold standard people yapping about returning to it.  Why?  Other than being able to point to an object (There it is!), it is no more valuable than currency which is based upon faith of the holders (can't point to that).

So the burn, eat or wear was referring to the basic necessities of life.  Not the luxuries of life.

You are a very noble person!

The problem being though is that the company could give a damn about why their staff are unhappy.  Again, all they care about is profit.

Companies over here are the same, abusing laws and rights and only care when they get caught. This can be hard as our labor board must give 24 hours notice before entering a plant with complaints. Hmmm, should the police give a 24 hour notice before they raid your house? A labor inspector should be givin the power to enter a plant that has complaints of safety violations without the phone call "We have complaints and you got 24 hrs to clean up the evidence before we come".

And honest about it too. Seems that if you're not struggling, impoverished or a victim of circumstances, something, someone, or whatever, you're kinda villainized on most forums these days. I have a lot of stuff and I'm neither ashamed or embarrassed about it because I earned it wth no hand out, hand up or help from anyone but my own self. 

alleeez ! faites une pose, ça changera rien de toute façon

This is why it's often more important to take a job you like for less pay than a job you hate for a bigger check.  My aunt had a job she hated at the post office for decades, but refused to look into alternatives.  It was easy, it was boring, it paid better than anything else she was likely to ever get.  She was miserable, no fun to be around at gatherings, and most family members limited contact with her to once a her.  She just droned away month after month.  After she finally retired she was a new person.  Suddenly she made interesting conversation, was more interested in doing things, and suddenly visiting that aunt wasn't a chore for everyone.

Was that worth it?  Was years of living as a zombie worth that retirement pension?

re: above post ;  aye, but in my neck of the woods, there are way too few, living wage, jobs (forget retirement) available to the bulk of the population.  Everything is part time, no medical, or vacation, often with crazily scheduled shifts.  Some people are working 12-14 hours a day, 5 and 6 and 7 days a week, at 4 or 5 'employers, at a pittance, just to pay for rent on a barely livable apartment, and feed themselves and their 1 or 2 children. 

labor laws have been gutted in most of the usa.  And employers have reaped a windfall of cheap labor with no responsibilities to the 'people' working.   But don't dare, as a part time employee, leave with out 'proper notice' or you will get 'blackballed,' etc.  True reciprocity for all but 'professional' jobs is gone from the 'labor market,' here.  Next stop, the company store? Indentured servitude for your food and shelter? 

-------------------------------

hey navagatso;  Sorry you feel kinda 'villianized' on some of these threads.  It is not, at least on my part, personal. Indeed I honor hard work, and equitable pay. You work hard and deserve a decent quality of life in exchange for your hard work.  Absolutely.  And I, for one, would never suggest anything less. 

And there are many threads on many boards that honor, and extol the 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' type of experience.  Nothing wrong with feeling a sense of accomplishment. Some of us, however, in addition to playing Stardock games, etc., also find comfort in connecting with others who have similar feelings, issues, concerns, etc.  I think there are two basic issues (or areas?) which, at least for me, these specific threads allow me to discuss and vent: 

first, the systemic inequalities inherent in the web of relationships in which we all, you, and i, live within; and from which we disproportionally benefit.  Child laborers in china work just as hard as do you and I, but get so much less.  Yet the fruit of their labor is sold here in the USA at a rediciliously low price (compared to USA made items) and we, you and i benefit from their suffering. I support the 'fair trade' concepts, and practices, and I almost never buy anything new - as i strive to distance myself from directly benefiting from products made by slave labor, child labor, and oppressed .. you get the idea.  

The second, is the issue of who has rigged this game and who benifits the most.  The so called free market, bankster pyramids, uber corporations (who are not really people but soulless machines with currency as blood) etc., have rigged the web of relationships in which we all participate,  so that they reap tremendous 'profits.' They then use this value they have taken from working people to subvert the policies and politics of so called democratic countries.  And, of course, to what extent do these economic imperialistic - economic forces / entities, when influencing current governmental structures, subvert true democracy, and the lives of the people that democratic government was originally established to serve?  To what extent do governments actually serve the uber rich, and the uber corporations, (which are the primary instruments of the uber-rich), at the expense of the people?

So, it really isn't a dig on you, Navagatso, nor on your hard work.  Except, perhaps, in the very limited sense that, in spite of your hard work, some of what you have, might not have come into your hands at the low prices you paid, except for the systemic injustice of the web of relationships in which you purchased those products.  And bear in mind, I, too, have benefited from lower and unfair prices.  So, when you feel kinda 'villianized,' I also include myself as a villain.  What I continue to hope for, is that we, as a people, will finally fight harder to make it all fairer, and eliminate the slave labor of many other nations.  i hope you understand.  You sound like good people.  Don't take this little set of threads where some of us can discuss all this as anything more than one of the few venues we have.  And, I for one, appreciate StarDock (which is not an 'uber-corp) for allowing gamers to also discuss this area of life here.   

As an aside, a very ancient 'constitution' (c 1,500 BCE) had some very remarkable rubrics:  If you find a nest, you may harvest either the bird or the egg, but not eat both. You may harvest the adult cow, or its calf, but not consume both.  Loans are made at zero interest, always.  Every 50 years, all property reverts back to the original owning families, persons.  No one is allowed to accumulate indefinitely so as to become 'too big to fail.'  Every generation (or every other generation) gets to start with a relatively even slate - no dynastic, or rich families (corporations) growing until they dwarf and can lord it over regular people.  Unfortunately that wisdom has been lost, or subverted by .. well doesn't matter anymore.  A house of cards has been built atop that constitution, and the result bears little resemblance to the principles that were probably intended, but neither can the cards be separated form that ancient constitution.   And no one had proposed anything better. 

This was inevitable- we're going to have a race to the bottom- with only a few endgames possible.

As long as we have huge global wealth inequality, things like this won't change.  It will take centuries to fix this.