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AlLanMandragoran
AlLanMandragoran
Join Date 09/2010
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[1.19l] Suicidal Sovereign Example

April 5, 2011 9:01:31 PM from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Hi Brad - can you please take a peek at this when you get a moment? Here's an example of a recent suicidal sovereign. Please note Magnar is by far #1 in the game with 877 FP while mine is at 350. The AI decided it was worthwhile to move his sovereign unescorted into my territory and demolish a darkling camp within my zoc. Needless to say this allowed me to teleport my hero stack to the tile next to him and wipe him out and kill the #1 faction in the game(by far). 

Here's the shot right after I got the warning that my darkling camp was destroyed by a sovereign. It was hidden by FOW until I moved a unit out of Filler6 to see who/what it was. And there he is in the upper left hand corner.

Here's a shot of my killstack that I'm going to teleport next to Magnar's sov:

Here's the shot of right before the kill:

The next two shots show the results (and whammo, Magnar out of the game). [e digicons]X([/e]  I did lose one hero to the Touch of Entropy bug (range check is not working, Magnar sov touch of entropied me from across the tactical map and one-shotted a hero). I have a post on that here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/407300

On a side note I'm probably going to reload and keep doing the trench warfare city by city instead - enjoying the fight for land atm.

 

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AlLanMandragoran
AlLanMandragoran
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #1 April 5, 2011 9:19:46 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Brad - here's the previous autosaves if they're helpful:

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AlLanMandragoran
Vallu751
Join Date 05/2003
+14
Reply #2 April 6, 2011 2:29:18 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

This reminds me of an AI query of mine during the beta stages. I was worried about exactly this kind of behavior, but fanboys shot the question down.

I'm glad you keep the squeaking going. We need the oil for our squeaky wheels! I haven't been paying much attention since the game hasn't had any updates lately besides the memory ones.

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AlLanMandragoran
AlLanMandragoran
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #3 April 6, 2011 3:08:48 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Vallu751,
reply 2
This reminds me of an AI query of mine during the beta stages. I was worried about exactly this kind of behavior, but fanboys shot the question down.

I'm glad you keep the squeaking going. We need the oil for our squeaky wheels! I haven't been paying much attention since the game hasn't had any updates lately besides the memory ones.

Thanks for the necro link there. Good stuff and basically the same exact thing although the current example is far worse - old example was losing just a city, this example is losing the sovereign thus the entire empire.

I would understand if the AI sovereign waltzed in with a full doom stack but he's by himself sticking his neck out.

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AlLanMandragoran
Vallu751
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #4 April 6, 2011 3:19:21 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

At the very least the AI should check if a goodie is inside another faction's territory and keep out if it is.

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AlLanMandragoran
AlLanMandragoran
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #5 April 6, 2011 3:30:11 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Yeah, I agree. I'm glad Brad has a future plan on how to handle a kingdom/empire once the sovereign dies but it doesn't change the fact that they need to be careful. I'd be of the mind to do away with sovereign sniping all together and always allow AI sovereigns to escape to their nearest city regardless of where they're currently positioned but that would eliminate all the cool options around dynasties, who takes over, etc.

I'm not sure what threat level check failed  but that's why I gave Brad all the saves so he could figure it out. It appears the AI knew my city garrison was 1 tile too far away to hit him this round (which is good) but certainly couldn't account for the teleport on the kill stack.

But yeah, AI needs to keep sovereigns in their territory at all costs unless escorted appropriately.

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AlLanMandragoran
Heavenfall
Join Date 07/2008
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Reply #6 April 6, 2011 4:12:32 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

LOL... suicidal sovereigns have been in since the first beta. It's time to GIVE UP on factions dying immediately when the sovereign dies in enemy lands.

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AlLanMandragoran
Winnihym
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #7 April 7, 2011 1:41:10 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

It would appear that the AI didn't see a threat immediately around him, took a shot of opportunity, and was utterly unaware of the teleport spell.  Maybe teach the AI that they should do threat assessement inside an enemy sovereign's domain based on the total number of troops available to the enemy, not just what's in marching range, because that may be what's going to be brought to bear against an AI sovereign.

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AlLanMandragoran
mywhiskey
Join Date 09/2004
+2
Reply #8 April 7, 2011 2:06:58 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

After Porcupine destroyed my Lost Library, it looked like she was going to attack Aharlav single-handedly, so I had to destroy her and her faction. She still had 2 cities remaining with soldiers, so there was no need for her to do this.

 

This shows what is left of her faction right before her suicide.

 

 

 

 

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AlLanMandragoran
AlLanMandragoran
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #9 April 9, 2011 12:07:33 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Brad - here's another in 1.19l.

  1. I ninja'd Kraxis settlement (he had no defenders) with Boogiebac, the scavenging hero
  2. That pissed Kraxis sovereign off, who moved in with his sovereign and summoned unit. At this time Boogiebac was a 4 attack, 0 defense unit. So I do understand why the AI thought I was an easy kill.
  3. Used my available gildar to gear Boogiebac with an Oak Spear and two armor pieces. Used Frogboy to buff arcane weapon.
  4. It was close - killed Kraxis sovereign but I fled from his demon unit (Boogiebac had only 4 hp remaining).
  5. Kraxis sovereign survived with 1 hp. I sold some gear on other heroes to buy 1 salted pork, healed Boogiebac 5 hp, attacked sov again.
  6. Killed Kraxis sovereign - this is turn 39.

Two major concerns - he left his settlement undefended which allowed an easy capture and he moved into my new territory thus becoming extremely vulnerable. Now admittedly I had to use some shennanigans to finish him off (gear the hero, attack, flee, heal, attack again and kill) but all using normal game mechanics.

[Edit] Not trying to bust your balls. Just wanna give you the information needed to shore up gaps as you find time. [e digicons]:grin:[/e]

Here's the shot where he moved into my territory:

And the kill shot:

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AlLanMandragoran
AlLanMandragoran
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #10 April 9, 2011 12:22:57 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Brad - here's another example from same 1.19l game, season 52:

  • I moved my army stack towards Yithril capital. Yithril up to this point was a serious thorn in my side (kudos!) as he geared both his spouse and sovereign with weapons, arcane buff, and was making defensive units. I had to pass initially on my zerg capital rush - outstanding!
  • I took one of his lesser settlements to build up some units and then moved in.
  • He made a fatal mistake - he moved his sovereign out of his capital as I was moving in to conquer the capital which split his defensive units from his sovereign.
  • Took the capital, passed a turn for the ZOC to reset to my control, his sovereign started to flee and then I moved in for the kill.
  • Unfortunately I lost most of my army and CodeCritter died [e digicons]:waaaa:[/e]   but I'll take it. This was a good battle, the AI did great until he moved his sovereign out of the capital. I then capitalized on the "if sovereign is outside ZOC entire empire dies thing". When you find the time to work on it...thanks!

Saves:

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AlLanMandragoran
AlLanMandragoran
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #11 April 9, 2011 12:34:32 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Brad - also just a few thoughts:

  • Your plan to have more range monsters in 1.3 is a great one. It will counter my "scavenging unequpped hero ninjas settlements" philosophy and make it much more dangerous to employ. It will also counter all the extra goodies I get from the scavenging heroes.
  • If you could tweak the AI to defend new settlements with at least 1-2 units from the get go I won't be able to ninja them with completely ungeared heroes. If you look closely I ninja'd 3 settlements: 1 from Yithril, 1 from Kraxis (which allowed me to knock out Kraxis), and 1 from Gilden. All of these allowed a pretty solid foothold to continue the agressive early-game conquer.

Many thanks for you and the team's efforts! I really enjoy the game despite what Lord Xia says. [e digicons][/e]

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AlLanMandragoran
DTOM
Join Date 06/2010
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Reply #12 April 11, 2011 11:51:29 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I have encountered this "suicidal sovereign" many times as well.   Once or twice I took them out and resettled all of their cities that now disappeared.   After doing that a few times I simply stopped attacking unprotected sovereigns in my ZOC if I was interested in taking their already developed cities.  I agree the AI needs to be more careful about this type of behavior.   I also think that the cities should not simply disappear.   Perhaps have them go neutral and possibly decay over time until they are once again ruled by a sovereign?  

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AlLanMandragoran
NaytchSG
Join Date 03/2006
+19
Reply #13 April 12, 2011 9:19:46 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I played a game 2 or 3 weeks ago where Ceresa of Resoln was "Defeated by Monsters and Ruffians" and her faction was done.  Her power rating was in the 200-300 range in the mid-game... 4 man squads just researched... 

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AlLanMandragoran
AlLanMandragoran
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #14 April 12, 2011 9:29:50 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting NaytchSG,
reply 13
I played a game 2 or 3 weeks ago where Ceresa of Resoln was "Defeated by Monsters and Ruffians" and her faction was done.  Her power rating was in the 200-300 range in the mid-game... 4 man squads just researched... 

Yikes, I've never seen that mid or late game. I've only seen the sov's die early game from monsters & ruffians when for some reason they haven't founded a city.

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AlLanMandragoran
NaytchSG
Join Date 03/2006
+19
Reply #15 April 12, 2011 10:13:15 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I was shocked as well, she had declared war on my kingdom 5-10 turns previous to her untimely demise. [e digicons]}[/e]

At the time she had at least three cities on the map (that I could see) and had some units with war staves.  I was rated at 88, with a capital and two level 3 satellite cities.  I wonder if she ran into pack drakes or that really tough albino spider unit...

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