Yes essence was such an awesome idea. It makes me sad it is gone. I think it would have been interesting if essence gave a percent bonus to all stats.

Yes, I realize that this mechanic exists in game, and it is not really the same; Intelligence is a limiting factor for everyone except your sovereign, and is low enough that anyone you want casting spells it is not a problem for.

Additionally; any champion you are going to bother to imbue and do damage with spells is going to have a high enough Int stat that those caps are essentially worthless. Kinda like setting a minimum price on something in the US at $0.01. Yeah, great. All our money is already at least that big, so why bother with the restriction.

Essence was a great concept, I wouldn't mind having it back.

Mana pool needs to go. Having a pool rewards passivity -- if you do nothing now, you're stronger later. That is _bad_ design.

Mana should use a flow system. You generate X amount of mana per turn, and whether you use it or not you have the same amount of mana next turn (unless you lose or gain the ability to produce mana). In other words, the same system used for movement points: just because your 2 move unit stands still for five turns doesn't mean it will be able to move 12 tiles on turn 6. Since you can't hoard the stuff, you get the most benefit out of using it non stop.

It's a better, simpler and more sensible system that makes intuitive sense. It'd also make enchants and summons a lot more interesting and a lot less expensive.  

Hell, with a flow system for mana you could even go back to local mana for tactical battles, just like units have local movement points for battles. Suddenly multiple channelers on a battlefield are a powerful asset, not a massive drain on your ridiculous mana treasury. 

Fine example of how no game can be all things for all players. I loathe the idea of such limits on mana. But then I'm still seriously hoping that FE will include major new options for using mana, like item creation, stupendous summonings, and spells with an open-ended mana cost so players have to decide just how big a firestorm they want to rain down on an enemy city.

Not to mention how different (and more fun) things would be with true overland spells a-la MoM (with whole factions as targets, not just settlements or units) and a complementary Disjunction spell. Really want to be sure you take down that vexing curse that's dropped your pop growth to near-zero? Then pour on the mana since you've been hording so much.

to quote an old post of mine:

this is why i prefer regenerating global mana with a non linear formula like this:

where x is turns and y is mana. the equation is mana = max mana x (1 - e ^ (- game constant x turn number))

this way mana regenerates at a decreasing rate until it reaches your max mana over the course of say 50 turns or so (graph numbers are provisional). the higher your max mana, the faster the generation. you increase the max mana with every shard you own, for some unique buildings. every summons or enchant reduces it slightly. this has a lot of advantages over linear regeneration (ie, +5 regen for shard, -2 for a summon) in that it's impossible to give the player negative or static regen if they summon too much. you can be a lot more finely graded since you're dealing with bigger numbers and set it up so there is a lot less of a difference between a mana maint of 1 and 2. and in the mid game you can have 10 summons (so long as you're fine with a small mana pool that regens slowly). it also favours people who actually use the stuff because users get faster regen, rather than stockpiling mana (though that is still a good idea to an extent). finally it governs both the size and the pool and it's regen in one stat. you can modify the game constant with the "game speed" set-up option too.

basically it's a compromise between the old short term personal mana, and the new infinite scale global mana accumulation.

The essence problem is just another example of how systems in the game were rolled out otgether without thinkig of how they wold interact with each other. Essence and imbueing were great ideas. It would just takes some forethought to balance it properly. The devs are well aware of all sorts of past games that use similar mechanics. The unit stats are an example of that: str dex con int wis cha. These stats are not created equal str is worth more and cha is worth less. So how could they think that three points per level up to raise whatever stats you choose for the same cost were balanced ? That was the major flaw of the old system. It is not that essence was too powerful, it was that it was too easy to get. Likewise the damage that various spells did were not balanced to reflect the combat systems. The goal should have been perfect the combat system, then set the damage levels of the spells so we can balance the damage output of a spellcaster.

Creating a new engine is all well and dandy, but don't repeat the mistakes of previous game systems and computer games simpy because you can. I know the devs do spend a lot of time talking about the various points of the game but you can still have a working system out on paper before you start coding. Even with teh changes taht had to be made to accomodate the engine, i just don't see this kind of vision in the game. And that makes me sad.

A simple mana cap upon usage would do that same. Tweak mana costs and income (re: increase so there is more room to balance things) and add a revamped essense system so that imbueing will not allow an exponitial growth of magical capability.

a flow system would be atrocious. you'd replace the pressure to never use mana with a pressure to use it every turn. every turn that went by without you casting a spell (even if it was just a map reveal or some other subtle fluff thing) would be a waste. sovs would be powerful beyond imagining if they cast spells every turn. this is a many-term game. people should be able to just spam end-turn 5 times every now and then to get things moving. you can't force people to micro that much, not the way the game is currently scaled. either you'd give the ai a huge advantage (only it would have the pettiness to make use of it) or you'd give the player an enormous advantage if you told the ai not to behave like that.

if nothing else, on a technical level, how would this system even handle the spell of makingm, or curgen's inferno, where the entire idea of the spell is that you have to save up for a long time to cast it?

a cap on the amount that can be accumulated has it's own problem: what determines the cap? do we start adding improvements that change it? while the idea isn't that much different to the graph i drew, my system at least combines regen and pool size in a single stat, and imho handles mana maintenance better.

And sethai's response again gives me hope in the work that the devs will be doing to open up the game more to modding, because he has a much different idea as to how the game should/ COULD operate.Anyhow, this is competely unresolvable in the forums. Good luck devs.

  Mechanics don't matter, gameplay matters.  Designers love mechanics, they are fun to talk about, tweak and post about on forums.  They are not gameplay.  There is a long dark hallway between what is fun to design and what is fun to play.

  So essence is just a mechanic to me.  What is it we want from essence that is appealing to gameplay?  Can we ditch the mechanic and still have the gameplay we want?  We can allow a sovereign to weaken himself to strengthen a champion.  We can have a sovereign strengthen himself and weaken or sacrifice a champion.  We can have sovereigns and champions increase their magical abilities as they level (and in a much better way than Int).  Why do we neeed essence?

ps.  I agree with Sethai that a flow system forces efficient play use by using all mana each turn.  It also kills the strategic option of saving mana, going after players that are saving mana, and unleashing increidble spells that are only balanced by the their massive mana costs (since every spell in the game would potentially be castable every turn).

Are there any plans to require sovereigns to meet the INT requirements of spells ?

Then we are in agreement.  The mechanic is there and is perfectly fine, but to me it really is unfathomable why the devs would put a limiting requirement on the spells, usually too low to actually be limiting in any way, and then on top of that they exempt the sovereign from this stat limitation.

Of course all of this could be easily modded, but it seems that someone in-house ought to take a serious look at the numbers for the core game.

Do you actually think this is true?

I think Str is fairly useless in this game.  Now, if weapons had required stats to equip (usually Str) that would be a different story.

I think Str and Int are the weakest stats, then Dex, then Cha, then Con.

The above discussion was in light of the current game we have. In it, we don't have any of those things you describe and Essence is seen to be something that would accomplish that.

So, no, we don't need Essence, but we need something that accomplishes what you've just described.

Of course, you could make it so a Sovereign saccrifies hp in order to strengthen a champion, or sacrifice a champion for a permanent hp boost, add a hp or shard cost to a big spell etc. which in the end accomplishes the same as Essence. I don't think so much this discussion is about Essence, as much as it is about gameplay which the current version doesn't have and which is seen by some to be needed.

People don't miss Essence as a mechanic per se, they miss Essence as a mechanic that would create certain gameplay that you've described and help with some of the problems the current global mana pool has. Mainly that in early game and small maps, upkeep forces you to not use those spells that have it (or to use them only for 2 turns, micro managing intensive) and in late game and large maps, powerful spells can be cast by the dozens each turn, since you can accumulate so much mana.

Giving something up forever makes interesting choices, if there is something interesting to be gained. Giving up essense to have more total essense in the long run is not interesting.

Hence one of the reasons Divinity II did so well, you could sacrifice XP to read people's minds. And people had interesting things in there heads to read. I even found some of the reads that were text only (no gameplay effect) to be worth the 10k XP they cost.

there's nothing necesarrily wrong with endlessly accumulating resources: we have endlessly accumulating gold but no one complains about that. the difference between mana and gold is that you very rarely spend mana to make mana, or spend another resource to make mana. it is part of the resource system but not yet fully integrated yet. while there are ways to spend mana to make other resources, there are very few ways to make up a shortfall. so maybe if there were more ways of making and spending mana, we wouldn't get the same sense of dread about spending it, and the graph of mana over time would be more up and down, like it is for other resources.

of course, it may be the intent to keep mana somewhat removed from the other resources. that's fair enough: it adds a levelling factor. if mana was produced in cities by temples (or whatever) then the game would become even more territorially focused. but if you're going to keep mana somewhat removed from the rest of the game, then you will be giving people a fear-of-spending, whether it's justified or not. if you continue to keep mana gen removed then the non linear generation system i posted above would seem like the best way to generate it.

i say or not, because, as with many things, these theories are very difficult to test because the ai is very bad at using magic anyway (and other parts of the game). it's one thing to say it's possible to cripple yourself in the long run by using summons, but most of us can beat the game without using magic anyway.

would love to hear about this. i'd rather they stuck to their guns and treated all casters the same. if it's not balanced for sovs then it's not balanced for others, and that's a bigger problem.

  In FE sovereigns and champions follow the same restrictions.  But that isn't an INT requirement.

If they're following the same restrictions, and there is a global mana pool- how are you going to fix this problem:

In quick combat (And tactical)- the AI does not cast spells.  If the AI cast spells, it would likely deplete its mana pool way too easily, I can't see the AI handling mana management well at all.

Which implicitly suggests a 'no' for EWoM ?

I have not checked the code, but I presume the spell prereq is a) Int X, or is a Sovereign , or something similar.  Surely it's no more hard coded than that and so is quite switchable by deleting b?

Primarily by improved AI I'd expect (very sure Brad mentioned this was a to-do ages ago).

But a first step would just be having the AI just casting spells in combat with simple mechanics. If its got a caster, spare mana and a relevant spell then they cast it on a relevant target (closest, most HP, fastest, etc) and so forth. So, a dozen logic paths later enemy sovereigns could get spells (along with giant spiders?!)

The AI has to be taught how to effectively use mana.

This is the same issue regardless of the system, and is easier to train the AI to use effectily than the old system (the power of n problem).  In the old system each unit had an individual mana pool.  Meaning the more units you had that could cast the beter (sicne they were all gaining mana each turn).  You also had to balance mana usage over several combats.  The most effective use was to go into combat, use all your units mana, then wait around for 10-20 turns for your mana to refill and repeat.

This wasn't a very fun system, and wasn't easy to teach the AI.  There was a very situational logic (as compared to mathmadical) around if the AI units should be using our saving their individual mana.

The challenge still exists in the new system but instead of managing it on individual unit levels it is handled globally.  Since the player is making decisions about one global resource, the AI can be programmed to do the same.  It is closer to a mathmadical model, and less about managing all these diverse mana generators.

Ideally I would like different AI behaviors.  I woudl like some that go all out in combat spells, others that save for big end game effects (in general, it doesnt need to be 100% one way or another) and some that prefer enchantments, summons, etc.  that way we get a good mix and can play with them (or have the ais play each other) to see what balance works best.

I see where you're coming from.  To me though, it seems the problem with the old system was the waiting, not the actual system.

This is why I've been suggesting the following:

Keep int for strategic spells as is.

For tactical spells: int would be a per-battle mana pool.  Rework tactical spells mana cost.  That pool refills at the start of every battle.  This would allow the AI to not have to worry so much about saving mana, and solves the problem with the old system.

I totally agree with your philosophy on mechanics have to be fun- but part of the fun is also having to deal with those mechanics.  Right now you don't have to deal with a magic-using AI.  I think my solution would be the easiest way to handle it, though maybe not the best.

So Alstein, you are now a home life Panda?

Best regards,
Steven.

Thank you very much for the commentary Derek, i really appreciate it. I can understand your reasoning quite well.

With that in mind, since it seems then that essence will not come back as a stat, although i hope it will be moddable, a few thoughts then.

2 mana per turn is very miserly, HOWEVER, attunement does work well if you have the forethought if you plan on running a few enchantments early on - its a must have for me or i find the early game very dull.

On the other hand, late game mana is completely out of hand, perhaps having a mana cap based off of the sovereigns int, plus a bonus to this cap for the number of shards plus bonuses from buidling. This gives us something cool to do with our arcane buiding besides more research capabilities.

Some arcan buildings would be neat that could support the mana upkeep by themselves for a city. More enchantment variety would be nice.

It is totally absurd to be able to hoard all your mana until late game and then completely obliviate an oppenent in one round of casting. That is what a mana cap prevents you from doing. Yes it encourages you to cast spells now and then. This is not micromanaging your mana for the sake of it. This helps move the game forward.

Perhaps with enough resources you can creat the mana pool building infrastructure to still have that endagme finish that people seem to crave. That is not unreasonable since you actually have to work for it then.

Spellcasting should cost you action points to slow down casting so you can`t turn half of the map into one great volcano for the sheer absurd reason that you simply can.

Also: an idea for a quest

A person who has been researching shards, i think of him/her as a titan who has renounced their power for the chance to indulge in a fascination with people, is rescued by the sovereign. In return, the sovereign is given a chance to prove his worth and must vanquish 4 dragons: 1 fire, 1 earth, 1 water, 1 air. Each dragon is guarding an item that can be used by the researcher, one of which will be used to make a gift for the sovereign.

The resercher has figured out how to fracture a shard in a controlled fashion to increase and focus its power, but it can only be done once safely - then he wont allow it to be done again.

1) fracturing to increase mana generation: doubles the generation of a city, but the shard no longer counts as an elemental shard so it is colourless mana.

2) fracturing the shard to increase it`s spell potency: doubles the shards abilities in that city to boost spells effectiveness but no longer generates mana.

3) The shard is fractured completely and is used to make a powerful magical item which deals more damage against magical creatures or enchanted creatures than normal ones

4) The sovereign chooses to not have the shard altered and instead is taught a unique spell that can steal mana from other sovereigns.

5) researcher thanks you for the items, never could have gotten them without you and uses them to boost own power and attacks the sovereign. Defeating the researcher you find a unique staff that will help you find shards.

Your first sentence is just another mysterious either/or thing to me; as a player, I don't see a meaningful distinction between "gameplay" and "mechanics." What I've always wanted from Essence was a unique and innovative flavor element that is also important to how a game turns out. My pining is tied to my love of the old Restore Lands spell. The Cataclysm is more like a Big Disaster now that viable land spreads like oil from a busted well head.

I suppose I should just totter off back to the cheap seats and leave the matter to hardcore gamers. But I can't quite kick the habit of speaking up for love of story-as-mechanics/gameplay in a game like this. Ditching Essence was tantamount to ditching the opening theme of the game, or at least abandoning serious work on that theme and settling for a tarted-up compromise.

Sovereigns without Essence just feel less connected to the game world to me than they did back in the early magic betas. And I remain convinced that the total set of possible fun decisions in the game is fundamentally smaller with magic reduced to a traditional mana-only system (but I admit my math skills are no longer strong enough to explain that to you pros, or work out how I'm wrong for myself.)