Not worth trying to teach you idiots the difference between subjective and objective, or opinions and facts.  Have your little hate party and have fun.

This thread reminds me: was the Black album a sell-out by Metallica?

All I can say is that a game is made by a team of people, and while Jon was one memeber of that team, that doesn't mean you guys have to scream "crucify him!" just because that game didn't turn out to your expectations. In the end, it's all a matter of opinion. I never played Civ5, so I can't say for sure whether it was good or bad. You people also have to realize that your opinion can never have factual basis for another person. Another person may see glaring flaws where someone else sees an intriguing gameplay style. You can't impress others to your will, as much as I'd like it. Anyways, I think Jon's previous experience will benefit the Elemental team, because remember, we are talking about a collective whole here, not one person screwing stuff up.

You forgot to mention that mysterious deaths and disappearances have been largely unaffected, as well as calls to 911 from the office. I've been a little busy, and so I haven't been able to stay up-to-date on toilet paper levels and insincere compliments, so if anyone has the current data, please do post.

Remember when Stardock hired that guy who worked on that other game?  That was really exciting!  Let's talk about it some more!

If the word valid applies, that person is not a troll. Troll is an often abused and overused words as it is. Also, the OP has showed up in multiple forums, not just the Elemental forums. I am accessing this forum through Stardock's general forum for example, nothing to do with a game I wouldn't pay for at this point and don't play.

Domicron, your challenge is ridiculous. Allow me.

• Global Happiness
  • There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING about Global Happiness that is inherently broken. Is there a poor implementation? Balance flaws? Certainly. But is the mechanic itself broken? Absolutely not. This is common to virtually all of Sullla's complaints; A failure of Implementation, not Design. The two are VERY different concepts.
• "Too Many Penalties"
  • Wait. Wait. Sullla goes from arguing that ICS and BIAB are too powerful, to immediately after claiming that there are too many penalties? Most notably those related to limiting the size of empires? He may be able to get to the roots of issues, but come on now. This part really just shows him as someone pissed he didn't get Civ4.5.
• Diplomacy
  • Actually, if you look at the logs diplomacy isn't half bad. It is far more advanced than in Civ4 (Play a game with no religions. Virtually all of the diplo game will be killed as well. That's good diplomacy? Come on), and after the last patch, not a bad system over all. Does it need tweaks? Most certainly. Is it broken? Hell no.
  • Did you know that diplomacy in Civ4 actually lies to you outright? It doesn't show you all diplo modifiers, and in fact does not even include them in the total. The display straight-up lies to you. But naturally, it's superior to Civ5...
• Nonexistent MP
  • This right here I completely agree with as a valid complaint. However, it seems an issue that is entirely out of Jon's hands; Unless he's supposed to be an MP programmer as well? This one comes down to Firaxis/2K screwing up.
• 1UPT
  • Ah, the "Carpet of Doom". An issue that is virtually non-existent outside of Sullla's pictures. Such a wonderful way to twist things in his favor there, isn't it?
  • Rather than dissect the issues with it here, read my post on different methods (SoD, 1upt, XUPT, etc) here: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?101311-Poll-Should-1UPT-%28one-unit-per-tile%29-be-replaced-with-2UPT-or-3UPT&p=1318430#post1318430
  • What I will say is, again, errors in implementation, not design, and entirely fixable, unlike what Sullla says. But then, he wants Stacks back. And has come straight out and said so.

Now, I'm sure you'll be unsatisfied with this post. Doesn't really matter. My point is the issues you mention repeatedly are on the implementation side, not the design side, and are all fixable.

Now, a challenge for you: Contemplate this for me. What right do you have to demand that he admit fault? What proof do you have that the fault is his, and not commands from Firaxis (or, far more likely, 2K, given that they have the money)? What proof do you have that the actual issues with the game are entirely his fault and his alone?

What proof do we have that you simply won't take anything you can and throw it back at Shafer out of a misguided sense of self-importance?

If Domicron was not simply acting like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nojWJ6-XmeQ&

I would treat him better. Others here have tried, but to no avail. He's not listening. One can not reason with a child having a tantrum. Since one cant make a webposter go to bed early, there is not much one can do with the web version of a childish tantrum, other than poke sticks at them or ignore them.

As for Civ5 being substandard, all of the Civ games have been substandard since Civ1. Mainly because they are the Civ1 programing repackaged. The main thing wrong with this series is lack of an AI and not to build an adequate AI for the game is a management decision, not a designer one. So all this blame on Civs failing being put on the designers is misdirected anger. Not having played Civ5, due to the Steam requirement, I wont compare it with the previous versions. But from what I've read about the game, the changes don't seem all that harmful. In my opinion, the changes made in making Civ4 were far worse (I have played that turkey and didn't like it at all).

I've been trying to mix beer and computers together for years, but all it has resulted in is ruined keyboards. What is really needed is a beer proof keyboard.

Everybody makes bad professional decisions from time to time. Some - like the banking industry with those mortgage-backed securities - make disasterous decisions that destroy lifes of millions... Most of us don't do anything important enough for the world to know things we did wrong.

That does not mean somebody is a bad professional. They made a bad judgement call, or had a boss that made a bad judgement call. They were denided sufficient funding, or put in front of a crippling deadline. There is a million reasons for a single product to go bad...

Everybody who read my review of Civ5 knows I am not in love with that game. The thing is although the hindsight is always 20/20 I am not sure I would do a beter job when starting with a blank whiteboard... 

I agree with you dopey.

Firaxis/2k has turned the civ-fans world upside down and are now very upset with Shafer because of it.

Criticism from the hateful civ fans has been harsh from what I've seen, but I just hope Shafer will be able to keep his head up high and ignore the unwarranted jabs.

-.-

Welcome and good luck.  

I hope your skin is as thick as the rest of the Stardock team.  

So you cite combat AI which he specifically states he did not work on.

Diplomacy AI is actually deeper than in civ4, you simply did not see all of it (by design); That changed. Now people say it's "insane" as the AI plays to win rather than roleplay; That doesn't make it broken, just different. For better or worse.

The economic AI is flawed how, exactly?

Well, we all make mistakes. It's part of being human. What we do after is most important. How we correct the mistake and ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Elemental's release was a disaster. Everyone knows this and Brad has admitted as much.

However, huge steps have been made to correct it. Some very impressive talent has been hired over the last few months and Stardock is literally putting their money where their mouth is. Also, the CEO has even gone on record as saying that he'd be willing to take a loss in order to retain the company's good name or something like that.

That is something I truly respect and I am sure others do too. Perhaps this is why people still "give a shit" about Elemental.

As far as Jon Shafer goes, I think he certainly made some mistakes with Civilization 5. I thought the game was piss poor. However, that's water under the bridge for me now. Now Jon Shafer is with Stardock and working on Elemental. So, I'd like to see him apply his considerable talents in improving the game.

Anyway, I'd love to see the same steps taken by Firaxis to fix Civilization 5 but I'm certainly not holding my breath.