And you decide to hire the guy that could do great things for elemental???

Quoting Lonemessiah,

I am beginning to feel that hiring Jon was a bad thing.

Not because of CIV 5 (I actually quite enjoyed it, and will go back to enjoying it when i have the time). But because it seems that the forums of Elemental are now full of the sort of people that the 2k forums were full of. Maybe one day we'll all understand the opinion is not fact, no matter how strong that opinion is.

'Jon Shafer was in charge of a team that made bad design decisions' is an opinion not a fact. 'Jon Shafer was in charge of a team that made design decisions' is fact, whether those decisions were good or bad is an opinion. Some of us think a lot of the choices he made were good choices. Some of us also think that when he worked on BTS for CIV 4 he also made a lot of good decisions. I wish everybody would take their bile and hatred away from the Elemental forums and go complain somewhere else.

Stardock shouldn't have hired a talented person that can help improve Elemental and future games because some people aren't mature enough and will post garbage and bitch about most anything? Sorry but I don't agree with you.

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Quoting Lonemessiah,

reply 74

Quoting mriguy, reply 73

Which game was that?
One of (if not) the best selling games on the PC of 2010? The same game that received 90% plus on the over-whelming majority of reviews from the critics. The same game that is still riding high in the charts on Steam and still one of the top played games on Steam. As I have said use facts, not opinions.

If you trust those big game reviewers then I have a bridge I'd like to sell to you.

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I never said i agreed with them, I am just saying that those are the facts. Therefore you cannot argue that CIV5 was and still is a commercial success. Just because some people don't like the game doesn't stop this from being true. And as for 'big game reviews', don't you find it strange that people only like reviews when they agree with them? Wouldn't it also be easy to argue that people are far more likely to submit a review themselves when they disagree with the critics reviews, which is why often on Metascore the user reviews seem to say the opposite to the critics i.e higher for low scoring games and lower for high scoring games?

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Quoting Lonemessiah,

reply 78

I never said i agreed with them, I am just saying that those are the facts. Therefore you cannot argue that CIV5 was and still is a commercial success. Just because some people don't like the game doesn't stop this from being true. And as for 'big game reviews', don't you find it strange that people only like reviews when they agree with them? Wouldn't it also be easy to argue that people are far more likely to submit a review themselves when they disagree with the critics reviews, which is why often on Metascore the user reviews seem to say the opposite to the critics i.e higher for low scoring games and lower for high scoring games?

I would argue that it isn't a commercial success. Certainly not yet. The game couldn't have been cheap to produce. I've heard estimates of around $30 million. With sales of 1 million (estimated so far and that figure could be too high) you are just breaking even.

Now considering that they have alienated a significant amount of their core fanbase by admitting that they made a simplified, streamlined game to appeal to the mass market and the casual gamer and you've got a potential disaster on your hands.

After all, I and many others sure the heck aren't going to buy any expansions or DLC.

There will be steadily diminishing returns for ciV that will leave it with a modest profit at best which is a far cry from cIV that sold around 3 1/2 million units. ciV will be lucky to reach 1/2 of that figure.

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And again all of your reply is opinion

You have no idea how much it cost, or how many sales worldwide there have been. You don't know whether they have alienated a significant amount of core fans (especially in relation to how many new fans they got). In fact surely by appealling to the casual gamer they have in fact opened up their market?

You don't know that many others won't buy the DLC, you only know that you won't and some people who post on forums.

And your last paragraph is completly unfounded. Considering that over 650,000 phyiscal copies have been sold, plus many more through digital means (over 1 million through steam has been estimated though they never seem to release figures) it is already nearly at half the figures of CIV 4 and this is within 15 weeks of launch. CIV4 in this time had just about reached the 1 million mark, meaning that CIV5 is actually doing better than CIV4.

This is not about whether CIV5 is a good game or not, as that is opinion, but it is about whether the game that Jon Shafer helped create was 'maybe he made the exact game he was asked to make, well polished and to critical acclaim?' I don't often agree with Lord Xia (who does?) but he is absolutely right. Jon Shafer did exactly what he was asked to do. So let's hope that when he starts working on a project for Stardock he can do what is asked of him again, just maybe they need to be a little more specfic on what they ask for this time..

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If you trust those big game reviewers then I have a bridge I'd like to sell to you.

I'm sorry, you can't yet. You have to research Engineering first. (civ joke...get it? get it? oh I'm soooo funny)

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Quoting Lonemessiah,

reply 80

I don't often agree with Lord Xia (who does?)

I do, we are now fwend since another topic (don't remember which one) but we are. Jon will too, like Frogboy and the other. Lord Xia have even start an elemental game wich feature Frogboy. He loves the guy so why Frogboy should not love him? He is adorable [e digicons]:karma:[/e] , like a big teddy bear with claws and blood . Nevertheless, I don't know Jon but he has some experience with games and he will work on the moddable part of the game so it should work fine.

Edit: patch 1.01: correct some grammatical/orthograph error in my message

+1

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That's right, Goldmos!

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Quoting Lonemessiah,

reply 80

And again all of your reply is opinion

You have no idea how much it cost, or how many sales worldwide there have been. You don't know whether they have alienated a significant amount of core fans (especially in relation to how many new fans they got). In fact surely by appealling to the casual gamer they have in fact opened up their market?

You don't know that many others won't buy the DLC, you only know that you won't and some people who post on forums.

And your last paragraph is completly unfounded. Considering that over 650,000 phyiscal copies have been sold, plus many more through digital means (over 1 million through steam has been estimated though they never seem to release figures) it is already nearly at half the figures of CIV 4 and this is within 15 weeks of launch. CIV4 in this time had just about reached the 1 million mark, meaning that CIV5 is actually doing better than CIV4.

This is not about whether CIV5 is a good game or not, as that is opinion, but it is about whether the game that Jon Shafer helped create was 'maybe he made the exact game he was asked to make, well polished and to critical acclaim?' I don't often agree with Lord Xia (who does?) but he is absolutely right. Jon Shafer did exactly what he was asked to do. So let's hope that when he starts working on a project for Stardock he can do what is asked of him again, just maybe they need to be a little more specfic on what they ask for this time..

I severely doubt ciV has sold 1.65 million copies. You have absolutely no way to verify that Steam has sold 1 million copies as they do not give out that info.

Lol... Right back at you with the "It's only your opinion."

Longtime Civ fans could be counted on buying anything Civ. After getting burnt badly and outright lied to by Firaxis about ciV I wouldn't count on them buying any future products until drastic changes are made.

How many of those new fans they supposedly got will stick around and not chase after the next game that comes on the market?

You can't count on either of these groups for continued sales.

I agree that Jon Shafer did what he was asked to do. He was asked to make a game that alienated a lot of the old Civ fans. I am sure he can't be too happy about that. I don't blame him though. In all likelihood it was a corporate decision by the suits at 2K Games and the investors.

Anyway, I am glad you think everything is cheery in Firaxis/2K/Civ land but that golden goose that is Civ is either dead or it is quickly drawing it's last breath. I never thought I'd see a group that was more short sighted then politicians but it happened.

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I have purchased every Civ game in the series with the exception of Colonization and the new Civ5. I have enjoyed every one of them, and I always feel a great sense of accomplishment when I win, because unless you are playing on the easiest settings, or are a Civ Guru, the game can really kick your butt. I will eventually buy Civ 5 as well, and I'm sure by the time I buy it, it will kick my butt as well as the previous ones have. In fact, there will be a Civ 6 someday, because there is an audience out there for it.

I look forward to having Elemental kick my butt at the appropriate difficulty levels someday as well as Civ I, II, II, IV (and MoM) have already done. I look forward to Stardock and it's talented and committed team, from Brad on down, making the game kick my butt.

Re-reading this, there seems to be a central theme, that I want to get my butt kicked by a game. That's true I suppose. I can't really say that I walk away with any kind of feeling of accomplishment or enjoyment if there aren't any "edge of my seat" moments in the game. Points where I can either deliver a master stroke or get shot down in flames. I'm pretty sure the new hires like that feeling in a game as well, so I'm hoping that together they can figure out how to deliver it. MoM fit on 1 or 2 1.44MB floppies, and it was a seriously good game, hard as well if you made bad choices. Funny how a 2GB game can do so many things visually, but not provide the same flow and challenge as that old classic .. yet.

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Welcome to the Elemental team, Jon! Dont worry bout da playa hata's, dey aways lookin for playa's ta hate. PIZZA for you!

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Well, I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents regarding 1 little thing^^

You don't know whether they have alienated a significant amount of core fans

Actually I do. I am/was a core fan of Civ; but after my treatment in there official forums every single one of my friends has returned Civ5 for a refund. Thats 40+ hardcore gamers & each & every one of them are telling others not to bother buying with Civ5; & each & every one of them told Customer service the reason behind their return of Civ5. (helped that not one of them was happy with the simplified game in the companies effort to appeal to more casual gamers, nor were any of them happy with the fascist MODS on the forums)

So I agree it's only an 'opinion' but its a growing one. One that the company is starting to take seriously. I've recieved an "apology" email from them that goes on to say they hope I change my mind and rejoin the Civ familly... guess they didn't like the fact that so many people in Montreal demanded refunds because of all that happened. (^^ Or it was an automated response script attempting in vain to do some sort of damage control)

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Civ5 is a poorly designed game. End of story. There's no argument to be had. Hopefully Shafer learned something from the experience. He's a young guy and I'm hoping he did and attributing his silence here to an NDA he probably had to sign on his way out of Firaxis.

anyways peace out stardock I'll be on my merry way

GOOD LUCK JONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Quoting Diardiamond,

reply 87

guess they didn't like the fact that so many people in Montreal demanded refunds because of all that happened.

Yeah, another Quebecer

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Quoting Lonemessiah,

reply 80

Considering that over 650,000 phyiscal copies have been sold, plus many more through digital means (over 1 million through steam has been estimated though they never seem to release figures) it is already nearly at half the figures of CIV 4 and this is within 15 weeks of launch. CIV4 in this time had just about reached the 1 million mark, meaning that CIV5 is actually doing better than CIV4.

If you want to go by numbers then McDonald's is the best restaurant in the world. And pop stars are the most talented musicians today. Civ 5 isn't going to go down in history as a classic, because it doesn't try to be. It tries to be everything to everyone. A nice compromise between an involving TBS and farmville. It's better to do one thing good, and appeal to your core audience. From a business perspective it makes sense to make money, but there are only so many middle-of-the-road titles that can become the britney spears (or justin bebe) of the gaming world. It's just too bad that Civilization got co-opted into that role.

Personally I liked a lot of the design decisions in civ 5. I liked 1UTP, and I liked hexes, and I liked ranged units. It was more the way the whole game came together that was rather disappointing. I'm speaking in past tense because it's unlikely I will ever play it again. I'm looking forward to what we are going to see in Elemental where we don't have to worry about being the game jony and all his ten year old friend are playing.

[edit]

I don't mean Jon S. He's a different Jony

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If you want to go by numbers then McDonald's is the best restaurant in the world.

Oh, but it IS teh best.....zomgzomgzomg!!!!

"Yes, oh and could you make that a 'Double size', McPlease!! Yummy yummy for my tummy wummy!

-.-

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Yeah, another Quebecer

Hahahahahaha!! Je suis une "moudis anglais Quebecois!" lol Ops i swore.....

... plz oh plz don't me.

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Quoting Domicron,

reply 88

Civ5 is a poorly designed game. End of story. There's no argument to be had. Hopefully Shafer learned something from the experience. He's a young guy and I'm hoping he did and attributing his silence here to an NDA he probably had to sign on his way out of Firaxis.

anyways peace out stardock I'll be on my merry way

GOOD LUCK JONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bullshit. Criteria for poorly designed? And don't state your opinion as fact, makes you look like silly. Ive never even played this game, but I know a stupid comment when I read one, and this is one. My criteria? Stating opinionsas facts, Using absolutes. No argument to be had? If one person liked the game, I think they could make an argument. There might be a game out there that you could say the game is poorly designed and there are no arguments (E.T. for Atari) But I don't think you can say that about a game that was reviewed well and has sold well too. Just say you don't fucking like the game. Thats it. Not that it was poorly designed. Hating shit doesn't make it bad.

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 93

Quoting Domicron, reply 88Civ5 is a poorly designed game. End of story. There's no argument to be had. Hopefully Shafer learned something from the experience. He's a young guy and I'm hoping he did and attributing his silence here to an NDA he probably had to sign on his way out of Firaxis.

anyways peace out stardock I'll be on my merry way

GOOD LUCK JONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bullshit. Criteria for poorly designed? And don't state your opinion as fact, makes you look like silly. Ive never even played this game, but I know a stupid comment when I read one, and this is one. My criteria? Stating opinionsas facts, Using absolutes. No argument to be had? If one person liked the game, I think they could make an argument. There might be a game out there that you could say the game is poorly designed and there are no arguments (E.T. for Atari) But I don't think you can say that about a game that was reviewed well and has sold well too. Just say you don't fucking like the game. Thats it. Not that it was poorly designed. Hating shit doesn't make it bad.

So do you hate Domicron's comment?

In his opinion, it is end of story. How is that bad?

-.-

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...And don't state your opinion as fact, makes you look like silly...

Whoa dude... think about what your ranting about... because your reaction makes you look a lot worse than "silly".

On this note, I'm calling it a night. I would rather be drinking in a tavern with my chums flirting with babes & getting shot down like a WWII bomber. Later everyone have fun.

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 93

Bullshit. Criteria for poorly designed? And don't state your opinion as fact, makes you look like silly. Ive never even played this game, but I know a stupid comment when I read one, and this is one. My criteria? Stating opinionsas facts, Using absolutes. No argument to be had? If one person liked the game, I think they could make an argument. There might be a game out there that you could say the game is poorly designed and there are no arguments (E.T. for Atari) But I don't think you can say that about a game that was reviewed well and has sold well too. Just say you don't fucking like the game. Thats it. Not that it was poorly designed. Hating shit doesn't make it bad.

Ahhhh I couldn't resist. Start here buddy: http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ5/whatwentwrong.html

It's not opinion, it's bad, broken, flawed design.

Or you know, just knee-jerk react and cuss some more. That really helps prove your point - oh wait you didn't make any points!

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Quoting Diardiamond,

reply 92

Yeah, another Quebecer
Hahahahahaha!! Je suis une "moudis anglais Quebecois!" lol Ops i swore.....

... plz oh plz don't me.

Bah, I don't hate english speaking people, even the Ontarian In fact, it doesn't bother me because behind the language, their is a person. And I love to learn from people. Some I will learn more, some less and some that I won't want to learn from. Someone already said this to me: a team doesn't breack from the outside in but from the inside out. Since we are a global village and we can trade our free specialist, if we want a strong world we need to understand that their is diversity of opinion, religion and taste. If everyone understand this, we will live in a better world. I love you all people

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Quoting Domicron,

reply 96

That really helps prove your point - oh wait you didn't make any points!

He actually made as many as you.

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 93

Quoting Domicron, reply 88Civ5 is a poorly designed game. End of story. There's no argument to be had. Hopefully Shafer learned something from the experience. He's a young guy and I'm hoping he did and attributing his silence here to an NDA he probably had to sign on his way out of Firaxis.

anyways peace out stardock I'll be on my merry way

GOOD LUCK JONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bullshit. Criteria for poorly designed? And don't state your opinion as fact, makes you look like silly. Ive never even played this game, but I know a stupid comment when I read one, and this is one. My criteria? Stating opinionsas facts, Using absolutes. No argument to be had? If one person liked the game, I think they could make an argument. There might be a game out there that you could say the game is poorly designed and there are no arguments (E.T. for Atari) But I don't think you can say that about a game that was reviewed well and has sold well too. Just say you don't fucking like the game. Thats it. Not that it was poorly designed. Hating shit doesn't make it bad.

You lost me when you said you have never played the game. I certainly have. 120 hours worth.

Your post would be akin to me commenting on the merits of Fallout 3. I have never played the game so I don't think I'm really qualified

to comment on it.

Please come back when you have a more informed opinion.

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I challenge you to read through that and refute the points made.

It's quite entertaining to me to see all this defense made without any effort to actually back it up with any sort of explanation beyond "it reviewed and sold well." I covered that on page 3. But please, do continue to make baseless generic statements. That's how you win a debate, obviously!

"no you are wrong and I am right and ur just a hater"

hahahahahahahaha

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