Sov + Mana + Combat + Mobility = Guaranteed Win

If you make a smart sovereign (high INT) with the combat and mobility books (and you can secure enough mana), you'll win the game.

 

1. Research Blink (mobility).

2. Keep increasing your spell level until you can learn Arcane Arrow (combat).

3. Amass Mana.

4. Kill any enemy sovereign of your choosing.

5. Keep increasing your spell level until you can learn Spell Blast (combat).

6. Keep increasing your spell level until you can learn Spell Immunity (combat).

7. You can now solo the Master Quest.

 

Blink lets you blink around the map, preventing anyone from getting into melee range.

Arcane Arrow costs 8 points and does 8 points of damage if your sov has an Int of 15.

Spell Blast can hit a HUGE area and does 30% of Int in damage.

Spell Immunity makes you immune to all special abilities from monsters.

 

Essentially, you AA everything and then blink away.

 

The only risk you have is against archers, but if you buy or quest for armor, they become embarrassingly useless.

 

Now, if I were the game devs, I'd look at this and do one of two things:

1. Have opponent AI's recognize that I'm steamrolling them with casters and create magic-immune or resistant troops. (Can they, aside from Scions?)

2. Nerf Spell Immunity - 125 mana and NO upkeep for complete and PERMANENT magic immunity?

3. Impose casting limits in strategic and turn-based combat.

12,137 views 11 replies
Reply #1 Top

IB, Have you tried this strategy on Large/EPIC/Ridiculous AI settings?   I agree on Spell immunity being OP w/o mana upkeep I wonder if that is more of an oversight (bug) than intentional though.

Reply #2 Top

Why make your sovereign smart? You get more damage from a warrior sov and can cast all spells with 5 int anyway.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Gene1966, reply 1
IB, Have you tried this strategy on Large/EPIC/Ridiculous AI settings?   I agree on Spell immunity being OP w/o mana upkeep I wonder if that is more of an oversight (bug) than intentional though.
End of Gene1966's quote

 

I never play huge maps, but this strategy should scale. (Larger maps make mana gathering easier because there are more shards, and epic pacing would also increase the mana you store because you spend more time researching.) If you get Blink, Arcane Arrow, and a steady supply of mana, you can't lose against the AI. If you get immunity, you can't lose against wandering monsters.

Quoting Sythion, reply 2
Why make your sovereign smart? You get more damage from a warrior sov and can cast all spells with 5 int anyway.
End of Sythion's quote

You may deal more damage, but you also open yourself up to attacks. Teleporting around the map keeps you from being hit at all.

 

Also, Arcane Arrow and Spell Blast are Int based - an Int of 5 won't cut it. You'd have to learn Fire. Fire can outdamage combat spells, but you need shards.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 3

You may deal more damage, but you also open yourself up to attacks. Teleporting around the map keeps you from being hit at all.
End of IBNobody's quote

Not that the AI really uses them, but what about archers?

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Corbeaubm, reply 4

Quoting IBNobody, reply 3
You may deal more damage, but you also open yourself up to attacks. Teleporting around the map keeps you from being hit at all.


Not that the AI really uses them, but what about archers?
End of Corbeaubm's quote

 

You either kill them ASAP, or you bulk up in armor. If you tech up enough in magic, you get access to some expensive artifacts.

 

EDIT:

 

Just completed a game (well, not 100% victory, but no mopup) on Ridiculous/Ridiculous with a medium map.

 

The only thing that gave me challenge was the number of roving monsters, but I attribute this to just me being lazy and neglecting my cities.

 

My favorite moment was when I found I could blink behind some of the town buildings (when they are in the corner). The enemy couldn't find a path to me.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 3



Quoting Gene1966,
reply 1
IB, Have you tried this strategy on Large/EPIC/Ridiculous AI settings?   I agree on Spell immunity being OP w/o mana upkeep I wonder if that is more of an oversight (bug) than intentional though.


 

I never play huge maps, but this strategy should scale. (Larger maps make mana gathering easier because there are more shards, and epic pacing would also increase the mana you store because you spend more time researching.) If you get Blink, Arcane Arrow, and a steady supply of mana, you can't lose against the AI. If you get immunity, you can't lose against wandering monsters.




Quoting Sythion,
reply 2
Why make your sovereign smart? You get more damage from a warrior sov and can cast all spells with 5 int anyway.


You may deal more damage, but you also open yourself up to attacks. Teleporting around the map keeps you from being hit at all.

 

Also, Arcane Arrow and Spell Blast are Int based - an Int of 5 won't cut it. You'd have to learn Fire. Fire can outdamage combat spells, but you need shards.
End of IBNobody's quote

 

Well I understand your concern for normal/normal difficulty, but I would have to disagree on rid/rid difficulty.  Reading your post I am going to assume you never have played rid/rid difficulty because using magic is like a bee stinging an elephant.  With your proposed strategy your global mana pool would be empty real fast once you start a war.  Trust me on this one because I have done it.  Your startegy does work on lower difficulties of play, but the only thing that needs to be removed is blink or change blink so it can be only cast once during combat.

Now as another poster stated why would you waste your time with this strategy when you can melee attack 3 to 5 times around for as much as 60+ damage an attack.  That is 180+ to 300+ damage a round you can do with a sword and wearing the best armor you hardly get hit.  This is much faster and overpowered than casting arcane arrow for 20 damage (40 int) three rounds in a row than cast blink rinse wash and repeat until everyone is dead.  On rid/rid you are going to be spending a lot of time in combat with that combo and once you start a decent war you will be out of mana because magic is very weak or basically useless at higher difficulties.

You should also try playing different size maps and difficulties before commenting that something is overpowered because really the only statement I can agree here is making a nerf on blink only.  Magic damage needs to be increased especially for people that play on higher difficulties because as it is right now you can only truly play a warrior.

Reply #7 Top

I did try it on Rid/Rid. See my post above.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting phauren, reply 6


Well I understand your concern for normal/normal difficulty, but I would have to disagree on rid/rid difficulty.  Reading your post I am going to assume you never have played rid/rid difficulty because using magic is like a bee stinging an elephant.  With your proposed strategy your global mana pool would be empty real fast once you start a war.  Trust me on this one because I have done it.  Your startegy does work on lower difficulties of play, but the only thing that needs to be removed is blink or change blink so it can be only cast once during combat.

Now as another poster stated why would you waste your time with this strategy when you can melee attack 3 to 5 times around for as much as 60+ damage an attack.  That is 180+ to 300+ damage a round you can do with a sword and wearing the best armor you hardly get hit.  This is much faster and overpowered than casting arcane arrow for 20 damage (40 int) three rounds in a row than cast blink rinse wash and repeat until everyone is dead.  On rid/rid you are going to be spending a lot of time in combat with that combo and once you start a decent war you will be out of mana because magic is very weak or basically useless at higher difficulties.

You should also try playing different size maps and difficulties before commenting that something is overpowered because really the only statement I can agree here is making a nerf on blink only.  Magic damage needs to be increased especially for people that play on higher difficulties because as it is right now you can only truly play a warrior.
End of phauren's quote

 

Now that I have time for a proper reply... Before you posted that, did you read the message before, where I stated I tried this on Rid/Rid and had success? If you missed it, it's ok. I added it as an edit because I didn't want to double-post

 

Anyway... From your experience, my game must have been a fluke, then. I should not have been able to crush the AI on Rid/Rid, even when it had a chance to build up. The problem was that the AI was unable to react properly to my magic nuke strategy. There is really nothing a sov can do to react to a blink rush other than casting Spell Immunity (an equally unbalanced spell) or produce Scions once they are in the game. I only had one sov cast SI... and he did so on himself... a level 1 sov with 14 HP. The AI isn't equipped to deal with magic, and even if they could react, they have no way of adding spell resistance to their units other than casting a spell.

 

The only challenge I had in my game was the annoying roving monster attacks. This wasn't because my strategy was faulty. It was because I was lazy. I would just conquer a city, throw up a few improvements, and move on. I really didn't do any colonization to bring the entire landmass under my control. Once I got the mana flowing, I started teleporting my sov around the map to mop up any bandits or beasts.

 

When I was fighting enemy sovs, most battles took 100-300 mana, and I used a mixture of AA, SB, fireball, and that multi-hit fire spell. Mana costs were low in the beginning and ramped up to greater heights when I started using fire. In order to pull this strategy off, I needed only to research the shard harvesting and mastery. I then started targeting enemy cities that had an abundance of Arcane Knowledge production or had shards in their ZoC. I was pulling in 20 mana per turn in no time, which was enough to limit downtime to about 8 turns between city attacks. That was fine pacing, because I did need some time to make sure that my captured cities weren't entirely neglected. Again, since I targeted cities with mana, I was able to keep my reserves in check.

 

If I ever was caught with my pants down (no mana), I just retreated. There is no penalty to retreating. (In fact, I found that if you have a champion parked on an improved resource, retreating keeps him parked on the resource and the improvement remains intact!) The enemy sov would retake the city, and I would then wipe them out again in a few turns. Since I was at zero risk (and always had enough mana for an emergency blink), I wasn't in any hurry to retake the city. 

 

When I was fighting some Kingdom cities, I found that I could speed things along by blinking into a corner behind the row of 3 buildings. I was unreachable. I couldn't use this exploit for Empire Cities because there were no safe zones. It was a time-saver, but my strategy would have worked if I wasn't able to use this exploit.

 

In regards to the 5 Int vs 45 Int... Yes, you can do this with 5 Int and enough Fire shards. The thing I noticed, though, was that even with 4 fire shards and the ability to do 30 damage to a 3x3 square, I was still using the lower damaging Spell Blast (30% of Int as damage) simply because it was more mana efficient and could hit more enemies at once.

 

In summary, I don't share your view that magic is worthless. If, however, you think that magic needs to be more powerful, I would counter that the exploits that I posted here need to be cleared up before magic gets its second overhaul. Otherwise, they will just make the problem worse.

 

Here are my recommendations that I'd suggest to the dev team to deal with this strategy:

1. Make Spell Immunity have a maintenance cost, a limited duration, or both.

2. Make Spell Immunity only work against magic, not non-magical special abilities like poison or web.

3. Prevent players from Blinking behind buildings.

4. Create a system (other than a single spell) where units can be improved to resist spells.

5. Get the enemy AI to use said system.

6. Change Blink so that it uses only 2 AP, and allow movement/combat after casting. (Enemy sovs or blinkable units could blink in and attack.)

7. Or instead of #6, allow enemy sovs to blink other units around the tactical map (and teach them to use it).

8. Or if the dev team is uncreative, just totally hoze Blink by putting a cooldown or per-battle limitation.

 

(They also need to fix retreating/protecting resources.)

 

 

Reply #9 Top

I agree with you about some spells, however not all spells are useful, and i think that is what phauren want to say.

Admit it, most of the spells are garbage, useless, though several are overpowered.

A spell that can remove any kind of buff must be included, both tactical and strategic.

I want a spell like that since version 1.0.

And major game overhaul in many things are needed.

I do think that the developer must have such a dillema, if they make units stronger too counter some of the OP spells, more and more spells become useless, however if they make the useless spells stronger, there is no use of units.

It is very hard to find balance beetwen units and magic in this game.

But no matter what happens, i want a spell that can remove buff both tactical and strategic.

 

 

 

 

Reply #10 Top

No what I am saying is if you use that strategy multiple times a turn you will not have any mana.  I tried it on rid/rid when v1.1 first came out.  I started a war and was still actively defending my borders on a large map with 3000 mana.  Between the proposed strategy against endless stacks of hammer boys, 13+ roaming monster stacks and teleport at the end of the war it was down to 400.  Magic is weak.  You talk about magic as being an easy solution.  I played a warrior type character on rid/rid and beat the game in half the time.  Using this strategy your battle last forever.  As a warrior type Sov you just walk up and annihilate everything.  Now that is overpowered.  Why would you waste the time to even use this strategy.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting phauren, reply 10
No what I am saying is if you use that strategy multiple times a turn you will not have any mana.  I tried it on rid/rid when v1.1 first came out.  I started a war and was still actively defending my borders on a large map with 3000 mana.  Between the proposed strategy against endless stacks of hammer boys, 13+ roaming monster stacks and teleport at the end of the war it was down to 400.  Magic is weak.  You talk about magic as being an easy solution.  I played a warrior type character on rid/rid and beat the game in half the time.  Using this strategy your battle last forever.  As a warrior type Sov you just walk up and annihilate everything.  Now that is overpowered.  Why would you waste the time to even use this strategy.
End of phauren's quote

 

I'm not knocking playing as a warrior. Actually, the best warrior champion CANNOT be your Sov. A champion with crushing blow such as Rillis takes the top warrior spot.

 

I just finished a game where I made a huge mistake. I was playing 1.1d on what I thought was normal/normal. I played isolationist - I focused on Terraforming and raised mountains around my borders to prevent enemies from getting to me. (That's another magic strategy that the AI doesn't understand how to defend against, by the way.) I lucked out and found a city spot with 3 lost libraries. 3 food resources, 2 material resources, horses, and diplomatic capital. I decided to turtle and play to get a better feel for the tech tree and city building. I researched every tech in the magic, warfare, and civ trees. 

 

I thought I was going to be able to take on the world.

 

That's when I realized that I had left one of the AI's on Rid. An AI on Rid playing in 1.1d is not bad, and since it didn't have to contend with a rid world or other rid sov's, it did pretty well. It managed to out-tech me, and it specialized in warfare. Not only that, it ignored defense and went straight up the offense tree. I was facing stacks of 12 Lord-Hammer units, with each figure having an Atk of 66 (Base 40, 65% refined weaponry bonus). I was able to bolster my Sov's and my warrior champion's defense to 67, but the mechanics of the game make it so that the occasional blow from these hammer stacks would outright kill either of them.

(I could not make my own hammer stacks to counter. They took too long to train, and I didn't have any refined weaponry tech. My lord hammer stacks could only muster 40 points of attack, plus any magical doodads. They would have been crushed.)

 

I could either try to fight by the sword... Or I could use magic. 

 

Since I was playing as the Kingdom against another kingdom, I used the blink exploit to teleport my sov behind some buildings and pepper the enemy troops with AA and the occasional physical arrow. I also used my imbued champion (Rillis) to blink around and unleash her crushing blow. The battles were slow, but I was able to whittle the hammer stacks down and dispose of them with no risk at all. I suppose I could have just not used magic and ran Rillis around the map during crushing blow cooldown, but this way took less time.

 

Moral of the story: Magic may not do as much damage as a sword, but it is much safer and much easier to exploit.

 

So... What would you have done in my shoes? Given up? Turned the enemy cities to volcanic ruin? Tried to win the game in a different fashion other than by conquest?