I had fun (surprise!), but exploits need to be fixed.

I've played two games of Elemental so far since 1.1, and I'm surprised to admit, but I'm actually finally having fun playing this game! Not just learning how to play (which was the only fun element of Elemental before), but actually deciding what to do and feeling like it mattered. You guys have done a great job with the economy (though money can start to come too fast to spend still. Need to find a way to scale stuff down to keep them under control). I feel like I'm not going to win or lose based off of random spawns nearby, and the magic system feels fun and interesting (though I think you moved too far in the "tactical debuff" area. Most are redundant). In both games however, there was a point where the fun simply stopped.

Game1: I researched Arcane Armor and bought armor for my main combat champion. Even Lord Hammers couldn't touch him. I won with 1 champion by default.

Game2: My Sovereign got enough int to cast Blink. I bought a yithril bow and had enough armor to stop any other archers. I blinked around the battlefield and conquered every faction with my sovereign alone.

There's just too many mechanics that are too easy to abuse in this game. Right now high armor is the real killer, since if armor is >= attack it's an automatic 100% ensured victory. While enemies tend to go quickly into powerful versions of weapons, monsters tend to have very low attack, making them xp fodder. Right now we have a game where the attack and defense systems combine to make it so that in a battle between two very similiarly powerful armies, one can completely defeat the other without taking any damage. Unfortunately, if you make it so that armor only reduces a portion of the damage, then you get in a situation where first strike + high damage weapon + high party numbers = instant kill, and kiting the AI makes all battles autowin.

My suggestions:

Blink: Make it so you can only blink to a square adjacent to an enemy or (better yet) make it so it can only be used once per battle. It's way too exploitable otherwise.

Armor: Keep it as it is, but make each attack lower the armor of a unit by a certain percentage (I'd say 10%). This would accomplish the following:

  • Armor would still be very useful.
  • Armor would be much easier to counter.
  • Large groups of individual units would be strong vs armored units
  • Armor would no longer mean instant win vs monsters
  • There would be a strategic reason to create high volumes of troops instead of groups

I'm sure there are MANY exploits other than this which need to be patched up. If you have others that grant an instant auto win, or make the game way too easy, feel free to post them here.

14,282 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top

Scrap everything and just implement a D&D system for all units. If there was a 4X Fantasy TBS with D&D units and combat, it would wipe the floor with everything else for that reason alone.

Reply #2 Top

Following up on Istari's excellent suggestion, I too would like to see a D&D system for units. Also, make the game an MMO/scifi/fantasy/fps/rts/rpg. And I want to play it on my iphone (in 1920x1200) and my laptop (640x300).

Oh yeah, I don't like North Korea. Can you guys take care of that as well?

PS. the drivers on my laptop are from 1995.

Reply #3 Top

I appreciate a satirical comment as well as the next guy, but I don't see what's ridiculous about trying to close exploits?

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 2
Following up..

Oh yeah, I don't like North Korea. Can you guys take care of that as well?
End of Heavenfall's quote

Elemental has already conquered (patched) World Hunger (food), Overpopulation (population as a resource), Disease (wait.. there werent any epidemics).. anyway, North Korea is doomed (They were already decimated by James Brosnan in Die Another Day).

Reply #5 Top

I like the idea of armour degrading after each hit in a battle. Means even the strongest enemies can be brought down if you have enough units that will last long enough to wear away their armour. Could work nicely as the OP says.

Reply #6 Top

Armor degrades, have magic to repair armor, or magical self repairing armor. It gives magic another spot to actually be useful, while making it to a single guy in platemail can't just laugh off a 1000 man army with clubs.

Reply #7 Top

I wouldn't have armour degradation stay after the tactical battle, that might be irritating. But armour with magic to absorb extra hits before it starts degrading could be quite neat.

Reply #8 Top

armor degradation would be neat, but let the armor return after the battle.  I do think it needs to recover gradually, sort of like the wearer is repairing over time.  Not just poof its back.

Reply #9 Top

You only need exhaustion. Bring in your energy bars!

Reply #10 Top

armor degradation would be neat, but let the armor return after the battle.  I do think it needs to recover gradually, sort of like the wearer is repairing over time.  Not just poof its back.
End of quote

Perhaps make it come back over time if you're in the field, come back faster if you're in a settlement, and come back instantly if you're in a settlement with a certain structure (blacksmith?).  That way, if your units are in an aggressive posture, there is a risk of counter-attack, but your units defending fortified city aren't left exposed.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 2
Following up on Istari's excellent suggestion, I too would like to see a D&D system for units.

End of Heavenfall's quote

tbh, most of suggestions i make for how to do the combat system tend to be D&D based; it's a very good system for this kind of thing. though there's some things i wouldn't keep (i currently like the distinction between dodging and blocking dnd lacks). generally though, the D&D system of random number + stat constant vs. difficulty just works, a lot better than 1DN.

Reply #12 Top

Three suggestions for armor/weapon balance:

 

1. Armor might work better if there were two values. You'd have something like 3/30%, where the first number gets directly subtracted from the damage roll, and the remainder is reduced by the %. That way, sufficiently wimpy weapons still aren't a concern, but anything else will get SOME damage through. Since parties/squads have a combined attack value, this would mean that a group of soldiers are always a threat, even if they're only wielding pointy sticks. For squads, only the first number would add up, so using the example above, a party of four would be 12/30%.

 

2. Separate weapons into bludgeoning and edged. Bludgeoning weapons have a lower attack rating than an edged weapon of the same level, but the defender's armor rating is reduced by 50%.

 

3. Lower a units armor rating based on how many hostile units are in adjacent squares, maybe 10% for each (7% for parties, 5% for squads, 2% for companies, since multi-soldier units can better protect their flanks). This opens up a lot of interesting tactical possibilities. Stay close to provide mutual support, and get nuked by an AOE? Or spread out and maybe get picked off one at a time. Those hordes of wimpy spiderlings would actually make you think twice instead of being a mop-up exercise. As it stands now, I can take a unit with just enough armor to repel a spiderling and a bow, let myself get surrounded, and pick everything else off over the spiderliings heads, while nothing else can reach me.

Reply #13 Top

I had fun too, though at some point it was clear I had won and it was basically just a repeated 'next turn' until the necessary research was complete for my Magic victory goal.  Once I successfully research Equipment (so I could build armored units) and Teleport (so that there was no longer any real worry about positional logistics), the rest seemed far too easy.  A horde of spiders is much less frightening when you know that they can rarely even hit you.

Reply #14 Top

I hope the person at Stardock that works on balance will not take offense about what we're saying. But it seems a lot of people agree on this forums that the equipment value balance is really off. It doesn't integrate with the rest of the game, it doesn't correspond to the game's mechanics in general. And since the AI plays the game as it is intended, exploring all tech options, a player prioritizing armor tech will win every time, without real challenge. 

 

 

Reply #15 Top

I still prefer the way Master of Magic did it:

Each attack point was a chance of hit, each defense value was a chance of defense.  This gives a nice curve of distribution of damage values as opposed to the version that Elemental had at release with the "I one shot you or do nothing" effect

 

10 Damage vs. 10 defense.  If each point of damage only has 70% chance to land, and each point of defense has 70% chance to work, you still have your 1 in a million opportunity, but it really is one in a million.  More realistically you most often see 6-9 damage vs. 6-9 defense, a.k.a. 0-3 damage dealt.  The odds of getting 10 on damage side would be 2-3%, and the odds of a 0 on defense side would be 1 in a few hundred thousand, for roughly 1 in 10 billion chance of hitting for full damage.

 

70% used as examples to show how you can tighten the equations to reduce chance but still have some give.  If it's more like 30% (which Master of Magic used baseline) you see much larger variance on damage and the uber hit potential is more common than 1 in 10 billion :)

Reply #16 Top

I don't see the current armour situation as broken, just a little overpowered as well as underutilized by the AI still. IMCO, the bigger issue is lack of focus in AI tactics when researching. So focusing on the other aspects of the blink archer exploit:

Blink:

  • Limit the range to 3 squares. That way a 3 combat movement unit can shoot and jump 3 squares, a 4 combat movement unit can move one square, shoot, and jump 3 squares. They can get cornered or else attacked this way.
  • Increase mana cost

Archery:

  • Limit the amount of ammo that can be fired.

This doesn't prevent this tactic; it's still a strong tactic. It just limits its effectiveness. The rest is in the AI focusing on military or magic and creating stronger units.

 

Reply #17 Top

# You can modify the damage system by editing the following values:

# The first three values determine the amount which will be directly subtracted from damage due to armor.

# The next three values determine the percentage reduction from the damage.
armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.8

armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65

armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.0

armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.75

End of quote

This is the armor system Mount and Blade Warband uses. It's a quite good one, and similar to one described in a post above.

Slashing is used on fast high damage weapons, and they'll perform best against lower levels of armor -- but because of their high speed, good reach and high base damage output they're also generally useful in hand to hand combat.

Pierce weapons are best when they're slow and high damage -- like, say, crossbow bolts and arrows -- because the soak is decent and the percentage reduction is low.

Blunt is usually coupled with either crush through -- which allows you to hit through blocks with an overhead attack -- or knockdown -- which does what you'd expect. It's generally best on a fast weapon with mediocre damage -- since it gets hit hard by percentage, but slips right through soak. Crush through weapons are also generally very short, so you have to really get up in someone's face to pull it off. That said, if you can actually manage an overhead attack (the slowest kind) at close range, you've got a good chance of either killing or knocking down the target.

The system works well because it allows for lots of equally effective strategies that work in very different ways. Someone slashing weapon is going to focus on minimizing your ability to attack through blocking and lightning fast strikes, because their weapon takes a few hits to kill if the target is in decent armor. Someone with a pierce weapon is going to focus on hitting you hard when you're not looking -- and since pierce is often on polearms, they'll generally also want to maintain distance on you. And anyone with a blunt weapon is a madman screaming DEATH FROM ABOVE!