Daggers and Weapons & Armor in Combat

Daggers

I have an idea to make daggers useful: not a weapon of choice but something you might want added to an army. The idea is simple: dagger-like weapons normally have a low damage output and cannot retaliate, but have a large damage bonus against units who can no longer retaliate and ignore defense. Think of it as stabbing someone in the back. I am visualizing an assassin-type unit that is very vulnerable to attack. To compensate for this, he should be able to move 2 squares, attack once, and move 2 squares in a single turn to move in and escape from danger. Given that I suggested only 1 attack per turn, better make it a large damage bonus.

 

Weapons and Armor

To make weapons and armor feel more unique and add strategy to tactical combat, I suggest two things:

1. Each weapon has a bonus versus a certain armor type and a penalty against a different type.

2. Some weapon types have unique abilities that either process always or in certain situations.

E.g. If a long reaching weapon (spear) is used to attack a unit with a shorter range weapon (short sword), then the defending unit does not retaliate.

E.g. If a short range weapon (short sword) is used to attack a unit with a longer range weapon (spear), then the defending unit does damage first, or he gets a bonus to damage when he retaliates.

E.g. Blunt weapons have a chance to cause a concussion (stun), leading to the victim missing a turn, or not retaliating for a turn.

E.g. Cutting weapons have a chance to cause bleeding, resulting in the victim losing 20% weapon damage in HP per turn.

E.g. A certain weapon type can have the ability to retaliate forever.

E.g. Daggers ignore defense and get a large damage bonus against units that cannot retaliate, but can attack only once per turn.

2,891 views 7 replies
Reply #1 Top

Piercing weapons (daggers, bows, spears) should definitely ignore defense, and your other ideas are good too. The AI needs massive improvements to army creation first though. Any special property or strategy a weapon might have is moot if the AI is just going to spam units with the single highest damage weapon they can make.

Reply #2 Top

Why would they ignore defence, thats doesn't seem right.  Try shoving a stick through 1/8 inch of steel.  What we should do with daggers is make them into shields.  What?  I mean off hand bonuses like what Nym has.  Instead of having a shield in your off hand, you could have a dagger that provides some extra attack bonus, maybe some dodge too. 

Reply #3 Top

Actually it makes a lot of sense since that's what the weapons were basically designed to do. It's why they are called "piercing" weapons. Daggers are meant to slip through the gaps in armor, arrows and crossbow bolts can easily punch through plate armor, and a good sharp and strong spear can impale anything. Armor is meant to deflect slashing attacks and soften blunt attacks.

Reply #4 Top

I think they'll eventually get to something like this. Well, at least different types of damage. The tags are in the XML right now (well, a couple), but I don't think they do anything yet. I've seen armor that provides defense against "Blunt Damage", but how much is unknown. I think they put the backbone for the different types of damage in the system, but it appears not to be fully functional right now. I have a feeling this is going to be an expansion addition. Although it would be sweet if it ended up coming in 1.2.

 

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Sanati, reply 3
Actually it makes a lot of sense since that's what the weapons were basically designed to do. It's why they are called "piercing" weapons. Daggers are meant to slip through the gaps in armor, arrows and crossbow bolts can easily punch through plate armor, and a good sharp and strong spear can impale anything. Armor is meant to deflect slashing attacks and soften blunt attacks.
End of Sanati's quote

 

This is so wrong I can't even fathom how you came to this conclusion.  You are not getting an average arrow, spear or dagger through chain or plate.  Crossbow, yes, but not the others.  They pierce, yes, flesh, leather, that doesn't mean they turn everything to butter.  But the idea that daggers and spears make armor less useful is a joke. 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Lord, reply 5

Quoting Sanati, reply 3Actually it makes a lot of sense since that's what the weapons were basically designed to do. It's why they are called "piercing" weapons. Daggers are meant to slip through the gaps in armor, arrows and crossbow bolts can easily punch through plate armor, and a good sharp and strong spear can impale anything. Armor is meant to deflect slashing attacks and soften blunt attacks.

 

This is so wrong I can't even fathom how you came to this conclusion.  You are not getting an average arrow, spear or dagger through chain or plate.  Crossbow, yes, but not the others.  They pierce, yes, flesh, leather, that doesn't mean they turn everything to butter.  But the idea that daggers and spears make armor less useful is a joke. 
End of Lord's quote

 

Chainmail vs Arrow : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4gPgHyaG1Q ("like butter" is actually said)

Plate vs Arrow : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xp56uVyxs (read the notes, even with weaker bows, arrowheads, and against stronger metal, most shots made holes in the armor and a few would have caused serious damage)

You can put a heck of a lot more force behind the point of a spear. I doubt anyone could put a dagger through plate, but they are extremely accurate and could easily punch through the padding or mail underneath. There are a lot of gaps in combat plate armor.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Lord, reply 5

But the idea that daggers and spears make armor less useful is a joke. 
End of Lord's quote

 

About the daggers by-passing defense on a normal attack, I can understand your objection. But after a unit expends his retaliations, I am picturing a unit that can no longer move to defend himself so an assassin can easily get close to slip his dagger by the armor like at the neck or joints.