Derek, we need a hook

This game is really bland right now.  Even if we get real good AI, the game is still going to be really bland.  There needs to be a hook.  If you look at successful franchises like Diablo, HOMM, WOW, and Civ and ask yourself "what have they got that I ain't got?", the answer is "courage"... oh wait, that's from Wizard of Oz.  What they've got is some hook...

With Diablo, they have the concept of common/uncommon/unique/rare items.  How many hours did you spend trying to find the coolest weapon or armor out there?  Not to mention there were socketed items you could make even cooler.  The other thing Diablo had was a skill tree for the sovereign.  How many hours did you spend on getting just one more level so you could add another point to your skill tree?

With HOMM more of the same... skill trees for your heroes.  By the way, HOMM also has way better movement across the map, easier/faster/cleaner tactical battles, and no city SPAM, but let's save that for another discussion.

With WOW, you had many interesting quests and skill trees!  How many hours have you spent fishing just to get your fishing skill up?

With Civ, it seems I'm more willing to hit that end of turn button for an interesting technology finally being researched or an interesting building/wonder finally getting built ... on second thought, those aren't really "hooks", just things that Civ does better than EWoM.  By the way, CIV V's biggest problem is the AI so when Brad's done working on ours, maybe he can go help Firaxis with theirs.

So I guess to sum up, we need common/uncommon/unique/rare/set items, skill trees for our sovereigns/champions, and lots of interesting quests.  Ready, set, go!

4,260 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top

and no city SPAM
End of quote
Map starts with X cities. No more (or less) cities are possible in that map.

Really...

Reply #2 Top

I am sure  some people will read your post and comment that elemental is nothing like Diablo or WoW. I however strongly agree with you, because Elemental is abit of a Hybrid and has a tactical rpg element Stardock could learn alot by looking at the hooks in games like Diablo and WoW. Also I would add to list Final Fantasy 9... Things like summons and equiping weapons to earn abilities over time would be great additions to the game that would certainly be a hook for me. I thinks Elementals strength will eventually come from both a depth in its tactical battles along side its depth on the strategic level... people may have a stronger interest in one or the other but they are both important imo.

I hope your post is strongly considered by stardock as I feel its message has alot of merit.

Reply #3 Top

I agree with you. The best place to start would be to make city building interesting. The system in place right now is very mechanical and cold. City building doesn't even have to be complicated, just simple, robust and FUN.

Reply #4 Top

I feel that the unit design window has great potential, and designing your own units already feels significantly more fun than other rts games that just hand you a pre-designed unit. There are a couple of space/sci-fi rts games that have similar, but far less powerful, systems of designing your units.

Hopefully they will fully flesh out the unit design system by including more things to diversify units. Rather than just having units with a couple of main stats - attack, defense, dodge, accuracy, health - there should be abilities that you add to units. For example, instead of a cloak you can add wings. Instead of a mount you can add a chariot, which gives you a charge ability. Instead of generic metal hammers, you can add (very costly!) magical items that deal fire damage, ice damage, add special abilities like rend earth (tile does X damage for Y turns), or innate regenerative abilities.

I strongly believe that the Unit Design system , as it is right now, would be GREATLY enhanced by allowing "on proc" items (a passive chance for something awesome to happen). For example, there's a CHANCE that when you strike with weapon X and you kill somebody, it summons the dead and your killed enemy returns from the grave, fighting on your side. By including such abilities, it gives the player a choice, and what is the "strongest" alternative is not always the same weapon.

I must also stress that in order for such a system to be truly cool, you must have buffs that give a visual passive representation on the actual unit. That is - swords should sometimes be engulfed in flames, units should glow green when a healing ability was procced, units STOP MOVING when frozen and they lose their turn, and so on.

Edit: Examples on magical armour with passive procs: armor that always deflects the first attack against the unit each turn. armor that reflects 25-75% damage of a hit, occasionally. armor that teleports the user away when hit, 15% of the time. armor that teleports the attacker away when hit, 15% of the time. armor that temporarily increases defense. armor that temporarily increases health. armor that temporarily decreases the attackers x stat. armor that causes a very small amount of magic damage back to the attacker every hit. armor that, when hit, sometimes seals the user away in a crystal, preventing him taking further damage this turn, and making the unit miss the next turn. armor that, when hit, splits all the damage it takes with friendly units in adjacent tiles. And so on.

Reply #5 Top

I agree with the potential of the games unit creator. I would love to see something as simple as letting me choose the main colour and trim of my units... just because my sov and faction are using green and brown doesn't mean I want every unit I create to use those colours. Let me create my sovs elite unit of golden body guards, or a unit of black coated assasins. Combined with the above things Heavenfall is mentioning this would really allow us to get invested in our units and use our imaginations abit. That would be one hell of a hook.

 

Btw on a side note I really love the way every unit gets its own card with a space for a quote at the bottom.

Reply #6 Top
Some good suggestions here. I agree the rpg aspects are fun and add spice and keep the early game interesting, and there should be more of it, particularly at the start, not less. By mid-game I'm occupied with conquering empires and my economy is good so adventuring is far less relevant. There is a lot of cool stuff made available late game that isn't really pertainent, because at that point I've already won and am just mopping up the remaining cities of crippled kingdoms for completeness. I agree the character creator has potential but right now is contributing to the blandness because it means every factions plays the same since you can create any unit you want. What makes game decisions in one game different from the last? Now, if there were more meaningful distinctions in equipment, beyond level of attack and defense, and certain resource nodes made particular sets of equipment easier to produce, yet competing kinds of equipment were still balanced relative to cost, such that if there were no ventri metal deposit nearby you would still be reasonably effective with leather armor so long as the enemy wasn't equipped with spears... then we might have gameplay that doesn't feel pretty much the same game after game.
Reply #7 Top

As I've stated in some other threads, I'd like to see the Character/Hero aspect of the game improve.

Anything that makes characters more interesting, and different from each other, adds to the replayability of the game. 

As an example: Ralene The Weaver is recruited.  As it stands right now, she's just another hero in my ranks that provides a bonus.

But what if Ralene was a master at Staff combat?  Then I'd be looking to get her the most awesome staff I can, so she can excel in combat.

And what if she's particularly good at training others in combat?  Then, I might put her on training duty between epic confrontations, because I know that the units SHE trains get an extra bonus.

Finally, if she spoke up every once in a while (kind of like Janusk, or some other random character does now with his advice) with things only SHE knows, that's another hook.  Example: "I grew up here.  I know about a hidden cave...", or "The Blacksmith up ahead, he's a friend of mine.  He'll give me a special deal on stuff.".  Or " I have relatives in the Kingdom of Tarth, they may have some info we can use".

 

Yes, Elemental is an empire building game.  But having unique characters that have you wanting to 'learn about them all', is a nice way to add to the replayability of the game.  Lets face it, do you even remember then names of the farmer or administrator you parked in the city once they are in 'bonus' mode?  But, if your Sovereign visited that city and said administrator spoke up (pop up message) saying "I've come up with a way that we can improve the efficiency of our mill", and you spend some money on his idea, getting that extra bonus from implementing his idea, well then you'll probably appreciate having him in your employ a little more.

 

AND, if you had some 'Mad Wizard' in your employ that spoke up every once in a while said "We've discovered a tome that talks about some rare spell, do you want us to research it instead?  And BTW, if you can find me some Elementium...", or something else that's different from the 'usual fare', again you've been given something to think about.  Similar to the advisors you may have seen in some other 4x games.  But perhaps with a twist...

I remember another game (Pax Imperia?), where you hired your different advisors, and each had different stats.  A similar concept in Elemental (i.e. a Researcher that oversees all your research, or an Arcanist, for example), might be interesting.  Or perhaps you've just hired Vey, and instead of having him grant that 1 research point a turn, you choose him to become your Chief Researcher, because he has a high Intelligence and specializes in Adventuring research.  Later, you hire another researcher (Helga) who specializes in Warfare, and give her the 'top spot' so you can focus on that area of research.

Or, you are in the middle of a chat with another empire, and you notice that Helga is amongst their list of heroes.  Vey has 'done his job', so you offer to trade him for Helga, since you now want to focus on weaponry for later...

Said advisors would be stationed in your appropriate 'center of research', which may or not be your capital city.  You'd designate one city as your 'research center', one as your 'tech center', and one as your 'economic center', and maybe a 'diplomatic center', similar to what happens in GalCivII.  Your advisors would need to be stationed in these specific cities to do their job, and you'd have a special interest in making sure these cities are well defended.

Reply #8 Top

Great ideas tjashen!

Reply #9 Top

And for me its a crafting system

Base materials could come from a variety of sources

Quests - Go on this quest and I will give you some pixie dust/troll skulls/enchanted mistletoe
Monster drops - wolf pelts, spider legs
Regular economy - metal, materials, gold
Bought from a traveling wizard - (limited supply, limited time window?)
Bought from a market - (Limited and irregular supply, higher prices)

These would then get transformed into other items by some methods (governed by recipies A+b+C gives an X)

Quests - give me these items and I will give you this armour
Building (1) - Forge/workshop - deposit your materials and I will give you options as to what I can build with it (given what you have shown me I can build a flame sword with 2 of those and one of these plus some metal and some gold for my expenses)
Building (2) - Mad inventer - transforms them into research points (spells or tech), or subcomponents as he takes them apart.
Building (3) - Sell them for cash

These items would then be used by

Champions - equipment like swords, wands, armour which are unique and individual
Cities - the item is a magical water pump which increases food output

This then links all the disparate elements into a more interesting whole, provides some logistics for those that are into that sort of thing, linking different quests together, without individually scripting them.  You might even change what recipies are in any individual game (flaming sword of death is only in 20% of games - the rest of the time it just doesn't show up, but a wand of the magi is in 70% of the games)

Reply #10 Top

Finally, if she spoke up every once in a while (kind of like Janusk, or some other random character does now with his advice) with things only SHE knows, that's another hook. Example: "I grew up here. I know about a hidden cave...", or "The Blacksmith up ahead, he's a friend of mine. He'll give me a special deal on stuff.". Or " I have relatives in the Kingdom of Tarth, they may have some info we can use
End of quote

You make some great points that would make the even more appealing than it is.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 8
Great ideas tjashen!
End of Trojasmic's quote

 

Yeh really cool ideas here also. I get so dissapointed that loots basically boils down to gold and healing meat. Rare loot that can be used for crafting would be all sorts of exciting.

Thinking about it today. Elemental actually already has many hooks being in its nature a hybrid which will appeal to different people in different ways. However I would say that currently all the hooks it has too dull to catch peoples attention for long and are in need of some drastic sharpening. Also as this thread suggests there is the potential for many more hooks to be added.

Reply #12 Top

Hi Derek, there are a lot of great ideas in this thread.  Can you have them all implemented by Christmas?

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 12
Hi Derek, there are a lot of great ideas in this thread.  Can you have them all implemented by Christmas?
End of Trojasmic's quote

LOL! Why not next week.

Reply #14 Top

Hell i'm hopeing he gets a spare moment this evening (I have seen codeing done by hackers and that in films... looks quick and easy) ^_^  

 

hehe Nah I know this stuff takes time, but heres hopeing some of these ideas are on their whiteboards somewhere.