The elements in Elemental » Forum Post by Wizard1200

Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008

+441

This would also "force" the player to differentiate his spell-casting, and not just use the "most useful spell available".

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

I like this idea. It makes sense that mana obtained from Fire Shards could not be used to cast Water or Earth spells etc.

What do other people think about this suggestion?

Best regards,
Steven.

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Might add too much complexity - a % reduction in spell cost for those spells would be much easier to understand.

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Quoting Windexglow,

reply 3

Might add too much complexity - a % reduction in spell cost for those spells would be much easier to understand.

I dont think it will be too complex, because Disciples 2 used the same system and every element can be displayed in the UI with a different icon. Another advantage is that every shard will be a strategic resource and not an universal mana generator.

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

It makes sense in a game called Elemental - War of Magic that the Elemental Shards have a strategic say over who wins the Elemental War. All that needs to be done is have a different icon and tooltip for mana of each element (Four Elements plus Life or Death Magic), and for spells that are not from an "Elemental" spellbook (eg. Combat, Terraforming, etc.) to be indicated which primary Element they draw from. It would also be cool if different element types could be modded in or out.

Best regards,
Steven.

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

Having different mana "resources" also opens up the door for special items that use or give specific type/s of mana (or both! how about a converter of mana? - less than 1:1 of course!), and quest rewards of one or more specific types of mana.

Best regards,
Steven.

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Quoting StevenAus,

reply 5

All that needs to be done is have a different icon and tooltip for mana of each element (Four Elements plus Life or Death Magic), and for spells that are not from an "Elemental" spellbook (eg. Combat, Terraforming, etc.) to be indicated which primary Element they draw from.

I think the spells that are not from an "Elemental" spellbook (eg. Combat, Terraforming, etc.) should be moved into the spellbooks (Four Elements plus Life or Death Magic), because the elements should be the focus of the game and the selected elements should give the Sovereign associated level 1 spells.

Quoting StevenAus,

reply 6

Having different mana "resources" also opens up the door for special items that use or give specific type/s of mana (or both! how about a converter of mana? - less than 1:1 of course!), and quest rewards of one or more specific types of mana.

That is a great idea. An expensive building could be a mana converter.

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You know, once we get some insight into how the AI works, this is possible to implement in a mod. Or, it's been suggested to me that it is, anyway. I'm still learning the files, honestly.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+152

The mana flavours thing died sometime way back before the first public betas, and it might have been so disfavored by the devs that it never even got into working alphas. I've never spent serious time playing a game with multiple mana types, but I liked the idea for Elemental because it sounded like a good way to increase replayability for folks (like me) who tend to stick to one play style but still want new games to play out quite differently than past ones.

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Different mana types was like most hated. I don't mind it and alternate generic costs for the spells (Fireburst: 4 Fire mana or 8 Mana of any other types) should still allow you to cast the spells you want in case of "Oh noes! Not Shard of my specialization!".

Not that magic specialists have anything to say in the game as there are none (currently?).

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Quoting GW Swicord,

reply 9

The mana flavours thing died sometime way back before the first public betas, and it might have been so disfavored by the devs that it never even got into working alphas. I've never spent serious time playing a game with multiple mana types, but I liked the idea for Elemental because it sounded like a good way to increase replayability for folks (like me) who tend to stick to one play style but still want new games to play out quite differently than past ones.

Oh, i think that is a huge design flaw, because with an universal mana system there is not enough difference between the elements and the elemental shards could be replaced by a single power shard, which is boring, but perhaps Derek will change this design before 1.1 is released.

You could try Disciples 2. It has a nice character development with many different abilities and the AI always tries to capture your mana shards.

Quoting Wintersong,

reply 10

Different mana types was like most hated. I don't mind it and alternate generic costs for the spells (Fireburst: 4 Fire mana or 8 Mana of any other types) should still allow you to cast the spells you want in case of "Oh noes! Not Shard of my specialization!".

That is a great idea, but it should be implemented with a building, that enables the conversion of mana, because it should be easier to code and it would increase the number of city improvements.

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

Considering that a lot of other concepts were changed or re-imagined in 1.1, I don't think it's beyond imagining that the devs, including Kael, would reconsider the Disciples 2 different mana types example. Especially with the possibility of a city mana conversion improvement.

Best regards,
Steven.

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Quoting GW Swicord,

reply 9

I've never spent serious time playing a game with multiple mana types, but I liked the idea for Elemental because it sounded like a good way to increase replayability for folks (like me) who tend to stick to one play style but still want new games to play out quite differently than past ones.

Never played Dominions 3 then? You should!

A nice way to make you wait for the future Elemental expansions and bring you lots of fresh ideas. Only drawback: you could throw yourself through the window when you realize everything that could have been implemented here but was not.

I am always devastated everytime people say that something already implemented in older games is "too complex" for this one:

- more than 4 stats for units? Too complex!

- passive abilities for units/weapons? Too complex!

- different mana types? Too complex!

- morale? Probably too complex (since it just got the axe!)!

- ...and on and on...

The question is then: too complex for whom? Probably not for the devs since I play games with these mechanisms.

For players then? The main advantage of the computer over board wargames is that the machine know all the rules by heart and can apply them automatically. The computers are more and more powerful, the player can concentrate on his strategy or on low-level rules while learning the arcanes of the game little by little; yet, we still hear that "it's too complex".

So: have games reach the 'complexity peak' years ago and are now on the dumbing down slope, or are players just challenge-shy?

This is a 4X game!

EDIT: It's not that I advocate different mana types, AoW did well with simple "mana", but they shouldn't be dismissed because they are "more complex".

+1

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I like your idea of picking two Elemental spheres in character creation. This gives me another interesting idea.

Each element has an 'opposite', with the other elements being 'neutral'. For the purposes of this idea: Fire and Water are opposites. Air and Earth are opposites. Life and Death are obviously also opposites.

btw, does the 'Death' school get to summon undead? Haven't seen this ingame as of yet.

Shards from your chosen element generate 4 mana a turn. 'Neutral' shards only generate 2 mana. Opposite shards generate 1 mana.

Casters that subsequently choose another school of Elemental magic will increase the generation rate of Shards from that element by 1 Mana. So a formerly 'Neutral' Elemental shard would generate 3 mana, an 'Opposition to your originally chosen school' Shard would generate 2 mana.

The above formula (4/3/2/1) could also apply to spells that benefit from owning Shards. So if you are casting a Water spell, but are a Fire Specialist, you'd only get half the listed bonus damage. Or perhaps only one quarter of the listed bonus damage if you are a 'casual' caster of said spell: i.e. you haven't fully trained in that Elemental School.

Becoming equally specialized in multiple schools should take a lot of effort/training/learning. in game terms this would probably be reflected by using Arcane points to learn levels of mastery (similar to how you learn spell levels now). So instead of learning a new spell, or a new spell level, you'd pick 'increase elemental/life/death school mastery' level.

And perhaps there are additional levels of mastery in the school you began the game with, which increase spell effectiveness. So a Fire Channeler could become an Expert or Elite Channeler in their chosen school, increasing damage/effectiveness of said spells by some percentage, 10-25% and 20%-50% (whatever seems balanced), or reducing casting costs of non-combat spells by say 10%-50% (wherever 'balance testing' determines is good).

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I fully support this motion.

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I like this idea, and it ties in to my dislike of "magic resistance" in general. Magic resistance does not make sense to me. A ball of fire requires fire resistance. A blast of ice requires cold/ice resistance...or whatever. That makes sense to me. But the notion that resistance to magic means that we can resist fire leaves me scratching my head. I get that the fireball is created with magic, but we are still talking about fire, not just some mysterious magic force smacking us (and what would a magic force hitting us be anyway? Can it be dodged? What does resistance mean in that case?).

This would mean that fire specialists would develop a natural resistance to fire over time as they master higher levels of spells and such, for instance. And then you could do things like having earth elementals immune to spells that use wind to push them back, since they are anchored in the earth, or allowing earth elementals to move through tiles blocked by landslides or mud. You could make fire elementals immune to fire magic, etc.

Also, after reading Brad's book set in this world, we see that certain spells draw from certain shards, like the fire shard, for instance. So it makes sense to do this in the game.

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I think this is a great idea, too. I also thinking that removing shard types altogether would make the magic system more interesting. Honestly, I think going in either direction would be better than what we have now (although the magic system is improving quickly, and I am very appreciative of the devs for working on this).

Advantages of multiple mana types

1) This puts a soft cap on the spells that can be cast from the different elemental books, rather than needing X shards to cast Y spell.

2) It makes shards a bit more meaningful.

3) Imho, it adds a bit of character. An intangible, yes, but something that this game could really use.

Advantages of a single shard-type system

1) The way that they are implemented now, you might as well. I think a half-implemented mechanic is worse than no mechanic at all. For example, why are Life and Death magic areas without shards?

2) Removes frustration of finding shards that you can't use fully. This way, all shards are important.

3) Most importantly, it makes it easier to add more magic types. I think that the game needs about 2 more. I've been trying to think of a lore coherent way to add enchantment/mind control type spells to the game.

Anyway, those are just a few off the top of my head.

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Quoting tjashen,

reply 14

Shards from your chosen element generate 4 mana a turn. 'Neutral' shards only generate 2 mana. Opposite shards generate 1 mana.

Casters that subsequently choose another school of Elemental magic will increase the generation rate of Shards from that element by 1 Mana. So a formerly 'Neutral' Elemental shard would generate 3 mana, an 'Opposition to your originally chosen school' Shard would generate 2 mana.

The above formula (4/3/2/1) could also apply to spells that benefit from owning Shards. So if you are casting a Water spell, but are a Fire Specialist, you'd only get half the listed bonus damage. Or perhaps only one quarter of the listed bonus damage if you are a 'casual' caster of said spell: i.e. you haven't fully trained in that Elemental School.

I think it would be easier to implement your idea if the shards of the selected elements, as described in the first post, create 2 mana points of the associated element instead of only 1 mana point. This would make the element selection more important.

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A followup to my earlier post about learning multiple schools.

Say you are a Water specialist, and can summon water elementals. You subsequently learn the Air school. This allows you to summon Ice Elementals (the air cools the water). Just thought I'd throw that out.

On the Shards being not useful, under 1.09n, all shards are now useful, as they all increase the Global Mana regeneration rate, and once you've learned Shard harvesting you can harvest any of them, regardless of magical preference. Of course, Shards from your chosen magic school are more useful for your specific spells (damage/effect bonus)...

What might be nice, for Empire/Kingdom design purposes, would be if Shards were 'variable' until the first empire or kingdom harvests them, at which point they become the shard of your preference. I'd suggest this ONLY for the first shard you harvest (similar to your Sovereign only being allowed to build one city) - after that, whatever they show on the map is what they are.

Or, a variant of this, would be to have players NOT choose Elemental schools at the start of the game, but being allowed to choose an Elemental school once they've harvested an appropriate shard. Note you wouldn't HAVE to go with the first shard type you harvest, so if you wanted to hold out for, say, a fire shard specialization, that'd be your option.

Until then, you'd have the 'Generic Elemental School of Spells' to choose from, which would be adequate, but not as cool as the specialist schools.

For non-Element Schools of Magic, you'd be given the option to specialize in these once you've harvested ANY shard, or perhaps once you've harvested your first Crystal mine (that'd make Crystals a little more interesting).

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Quoting Wizard1200,

reply 18

Quoting tjashen, reply 14Shards from your chosen element generate 4 mana a turn. 'Neutral' shards only generate 2 mana. Opposite shards generate 1 mana.

Casters that subsequently choose another school of Elemental magic will increase the generation rate of Shards from that element by 1 Mana. So a formerly 'Neutral' Elemental shard would generate 3 mana, an 'Opposition to your originally chosen school' Shard would generate 2 mana.

The above formula (4/3/2/1) could also apply to spells that benefit from owning Shards. So if you are casting a Water spell, but are a Fire Specialist, you'd only get half the listed bonus damage. Or perhaps only one quarter of the listed bonus damage if you are a 'casual' caster of said spell: i.e. you haven't fully trained in that Elemental School.

I think it would be easier to implement your idea if the shards of the selected elements, as described in the first post, create 2 mana points of the associated element instead of only 1 mana point. This would make the element selection more important.

The reason I suggested 4 mana, is because under the current beta, each shard adds 3(?) points per turn to your pool. So the 4/2 (and 3 & 1) is an attempt to average this a bit to fit the current Global Mana rates.

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Quoting tjashen,

reply 20

The reason I suggested 4 mana, is because under the current beta, each shard adds 3(?) points per turn to your pool. So the 4/2 (and 3 & 1) is an attempt to average this a bit to fit the current Global Mana rates.

I think currently the Sovereign creates 3 points of universal mana and every shard creates 1 point of universal mana. I suggested, that the Sovereign creates 2 mana points of the selected elements, because this would double his total mana per turn (2 mana points * 3 elements = 6 mana points), but the mana points would be split into the different elements (Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Life and Death) and, as you suggested, the shards of the selected elements would create more mana points (2) than the shards of the other elements (1).

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With the different mana categories the spells of the elements could look like that:

1ST-LEVEL EARTH SPELLS:

- Orb of Acid: Single target, (DEX*0.5) damage/turn for 5 turns, 2 earth mana
- Raise Land: Turns land into hill and hill into mountain, 10 earth mana
- Lower Land: Turns mountain into hill and hill into land, 10 earth mana

2ND-LEVEL EARTH SPELLS:

- Stoneskin: Single target gets +(CON) DEF, 1 earth mana/turn
- Nature's Bounty: Settlement gets +(INT*0.2) food, 1 earth mana/turn
- Invisible Workers: Settlement gets +(STR*0.2) materials, 1 earth mana/turn

3RD-LEVEL EARTH SPELLS:

- Stonefist: Single target is stunned for 1 turn, 4 earth mana
- Earth Ward: Single target, Spell Resistance +(INT) against earth spells, 2 earth mana/turn
- Acid Rain: AoE with 2 radius, (INT*0.5) damage/turn for 5 turns, 6 earth mana

4TH-LEVEL EARTH SPELLS:

- Summon Earth Elemental: Summons an earth elemental, 2 earth mana/turn
- Wall of Iron: Settlement gets +(CON) DEF, 2 earth mana/turn
- Slow: AoE with 2 radius, Combat Speed is halved for (STR*0.2) turns, 6 earth mana

5TH-LEVEL EARTH SPELLS:

- Flesh to Stone: Kills a single target, 10 earth mana
- Enchanted Hammers: Settlement gets (STR*2)% build time reduction, 3 earth mana/turn
- Earthquake: Destroys (STR*0.2) improvements in the settlement, 10 earth mana

1ST-LEVEL AIR SPELLS:

- Lightning Bolt: Single target, (DEX*1.5) damage, 2 air mana
- Blink: Teleports a single friendly unit to an empty tile in tactical combat, 2 air mana
- Eyes of the Eagle: AoE with (INT) radius, Fog of war is revealed, 10 air mana

2ND-LEVEL AIR SPELLS:

- Evasion: Single target gets +(INT) Dodge, 1 air mana/turn
- Return: Teleports the Sovereign to the capital city, 4 air mana
- Mobility: Single target gets +(DEX*0.2) Movement, 1 air mana/turn

3RD-LEVEL AIR SPELLS:

- Storm: AoE with 2 radius, (INT*1.5) damage, 6 air mana
- Air Ward: Single target, Spell Resistance +(INT) against air spells, 2 air mana/turn
- Haste: Single target gets +(DEX*0.2) Combat Speed, 2 air mana/turn

4TH-LEVEL AIR SPELLS:

- Summon Air Elemental: Summons an air elemental, 2 air mana/turn
- Wind Wall: Settlement gets +(STR) Dodge against ranged attacks, 2 air mana/turn
- Teleport: Teleports a single friendly unit to any friendly tile, 6 air mana

5TH-LEVEL AIR SPELLS:

- Hypnotic Pattern: Turns a single enemy unit into a friendly unit, 10 air mana
- Tornado: Settlement gets (STR*2)% build time increase, 3 air mana/turn
- Invisibility: Single target can not be detected until it attacks, 3 air mana/turn

1ST-LEVEL WATER SPELLS:

- Orb of Cold: Single target, (DEX) damage, Combat Speed is halved for 1 turn, 2 water mana
- Raise Water: Turns land into water, 10 water mana
- Lower Water: Turns water into land, 10 water mana

2ND-LEVEL WATER SPELLS:

- Alchemy: Settlement gets +(INT*0.2) gildar, 1 water mana/turn
- Inspiration: Settlement gets +(INT*0.2) tech, 1 water mana/turn
- Regeneration: Single target heals (CHA*0.5) hp/turn, 1 water mana/turn

3RD-LEVEL WATER SPELLS:

- Ice Storm: AoE with 2 radius, (INT) damage, Combat Speed is halved for 1 turn, 6 water mana
- Water Ward: Single target, Spell Resistance +(INT) against water spells, 2 water mana/turn
- Water Walk: Single target can move over water tiles, 2 water mana/turn

4TH-LEVEL WATER SPELLS:

- Summon Water Elemental: Summons a water elemental, 2 water mana/turn
- Freezing Fog: AoE with 2 radius, Accuracy is halved for (CON*0.2) turns, 6 water mana
- Healing Fountain: Every unit in the settlement heals (CHA*0.5) hp/turn, 2 water mana/turn

5TH-LEVEL WATER SPELLS:

- Grip of Winter: Settlement gets (CON*2)% training time increase, 3 water mana/turn
- Frost Weapon: Melee attack of the target stuns the enemy for 1 turn, 3 water mana/turn
- Blizzard: AoE with 2 radius, Targets are stunned for 1 turn, 10 water mana

1ST-LEVEL FIRE SPELLS:

- Flame Dart: Single target, (DEX*0.75) damage/turn for 3 turns, 2 fire mana
- Scorching Ray: (DEX) damage against every target in a line, 2 fire mana
- Fireburst: (INT) damage against every adjacent target, 2 fire mana

2ND-LEVEL FIRE SPELLS:

- Arcane Weapon: Single target gets +(CHA) ATK, 1 fire mana/turn
- Blood Rage: Single target heals (CON*0.5) hp with every melee attack, 1 fire mana/turn
- Berzerk: The target inflicts double damage and gets double damage, 1 fire mana/turn

3RD-LEVEL FIRE SPELLS:

- Fire Ward: Single target, Spell Resistance +(INT) against fire spells, 2 fire mana/turn
- Fireball: AoE with 2 radius, (INT*0.75) damage/turn for 3 turns, 6 fire mana
- Reciprocal Gyre: Single target gets (INT*1.5) damage/spell affecting it, 4 fire mana

4TH-LEVEL FIRE SPELLS:

- Summon Fire Elemental: Summons a fire elemental, 2 fire mana/turn
- Wall of Fire: Every unit that attacks the settlement takes (CHA) damage, 2 fire mana/turn
- Precision: Single target gets +(INT) Accuracy, 2 fire mana/turn

5TH-LEVEL FIRE SPELLS:

- Curgen's Inferno: Population of the settlement is halved, 10 fire mana
- Call to Arms: Settlement gets (CHA*2)% training time reduction, 3 fire mana/turn
- Flame Weapon: Melee attack inflicts (INT*0.75) damage/turn for 3 turns, 3 fire mana/turn

1ST-LEVEL LIFE SPELLS:

- Heal: Single target heals (CHA) hp, 2 life mana
- Revive Land: Tile becomes grassland, 10 life mana
- Awaken: Enables a friendly Champion to cast spells, 1 life mana/turn

2ND-LEVEL LIFE SPELLS:

- Fertility: Settlement gets +(CHA*0.2) prestige, 1 life mana/turn
- Consecrate: Life spells get (INT*2)% effect increase in that settlement, 1 life mana/turn
- Dispel Magic: Removes (INT*0.2) spells from an unit or a settlement, 4 life mana

3RD-LEVEL LIFE SPELLS:

- Mass Heal: AoE with 2 radius, Targets heal (CHA) hp, 6 life mana
- Death Ward: Single target will be saved if they fall in battle, 2 life mana/turn
- Holy Aura: Single target gets +(CHA) ATK + DEF against death factions, 2 life mana/turn

4TH-LEVEL LIFE SPELLS:

- City Guardian: Summons a powerful guard to protect the settlement, 2 life mana/turn
- Silence: Single target cant cast spells for (INT*0.2) turns, 6 life mana
- Dimensional Anchor: Settlement with (INT) radius, Enemies cant cast teleport, 2 life mana/turn

5TH-LEVEL LIFE SPELLS:

- Resurrection: Single dead target heals (CHA) hp, 10 life mana
- Antimagic Field: Settlement is immune against enemy spells, 3 life mana/turn
- Invisibility Purge: Settlement with (INT) radius, Enemies cant use invisibility, 3 life mana/turn

1ST-LEVEL DEATH SPELLS:

- Harm: Single target, (CHA) damage, 2 death mana
- Curse Land: Tile becomes forsaken, 10 death mana
- Empower: Enables a friendly Champion to cast spells, 1 death mana/turn

2ND-LEVEL DEATH SPELLS:

- Cause Fear: Single target is stunned for (CHA*0.2) turns if it takes no damage, 4 death mana
- Desecrate: Death spells get (INT*2)% effect increase in that settlement, 1 death mana/turn
- Death Knell: Single target heals (STR*0.5) hp everytime an enemy dies, 1 death mana/turn

3RD-LEVEL DEATH SPELLS:

- Inflict Wounds: AoE with 2 radius, (CHA) damage, 6 death mana
- Phylactery: Single target will be saved if they fall in battle, 2 death mana/turn
- Unholy Aura: Single target gets +(CHA) ATK + DEF against life factions, 2 death mana/turn

4TH-LEVEL DEATH SPELLS:

- Undead Guardian: Summons a powerful guard to protect the settlement, 2 death mana/turn
- Energy Drain: Single target, (INT*1.5) damage, Caster heals (damage) hp, 6 death mana
- Dimensional Lock: Settlement with (INT) radius, Enemies cant cast teleport, 2 death mana/turn

5TH-LEVEL DEATH SPELLS:

- Slay Living: Kills a single target, 10 death mana
- Repulsion: Settlement is immune against enemy spells, 3 death mana/turn
- Forbiddance: Settlement with (INT) radius, Enemies cant use invisibility, 3 death mana/turn

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Quoting StevenAus,

reply 5

It makes sense in a game called Elemental - War of Magic that the Elemental Shards have a strategic say over who wins the Elemental War.

This.

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