[Discussion/Suggestions] Let's Discuss: Heroes and Dynasties.

from Elemental Forums

Okay, quick preface here.  I ask two things of potential posters coming into this thread...

A: That you only post with Constructive Criticism's about the game or the ideas herewithin, meaning if you are going to shoot down someone elses idea, provide reasoning, and couch it in REAL, UNDERSTANDABLE, LOGIC.

B: If you feel like shooting down someone's idea but CANNOT provide constructive criticism, admit it, and try to put some effort into coming up with a better idea when you get the time.

 

Dynasties:  Too often I see posts about how dry the Dynastic System is.  And it's true, it is dry.  Myself and others have posed ideas like being able to have Bastard Children, or the ability to disown children in other threads, but what else can we do?

Well, with Dynasties, we gotta look at this from a realistic perspective.  Dynastic Events are really just political machinations.  Looking at the Politics in Civ 5, and some of you may disagree with me, but it doesn't feel organic enough.  Neither does it feel this way in Elemental, but with the inclusion of a Dynasty System, the guys at Stardock have the opportunity to do something really really REALLY special in regards to political gameplay.

As it stands right now, there's really no reason to ever marry off your daughters.  You lose a Channeler, and they gain one.  Sure, you get some standing, and Grand-kids, but they're the ones who get the Strength from that trade.  This is why I never marry off my Daughters when I play.  Well, that, and it's really really really irksome for me.  But what if you actually had a good reason, other than needing to not be crushed by a vastly superior opponent, to wed off Daughters?

Now, let's be realistic here...  What I'm about to propose probably can't be done...  If it can, probably not without a lot of effort...  If it doesn't require much effort, well...  Then Stardock should use the idea until I'm dead or they find someone-...  I mean, something better.

Let us train our daughters to be Spy's.  Spy-Daughters would feed small bits of tactically and strategically relevant information to their Origin-Realm every so often, like say, every 8 turns on normal pacing.  More for higher pacing.  (Obviously it doesn't -HAVE- to be that number.)  But how do we define which daughters are spy's and which ones are not?

Let's start by assuming that you don't just happen to train a daughter from the day she's born to be a spy.  Instead, let's put a timer on weddings...  Yes, you heard me.  Let's put a timer on weddings.  So you set up an Arranged marriage with your bitter rival, Emperor Krax.  You are giving him your first daughter, and in exchange, he's giving you a fat dowry and some standing.  (On an unrelated note, Groom-side should have to give Dowry's.  At least I think it's Groom-side....)  Now, both sides have to make a choice.  "Where will the wedding be?"  This should be a diplomatic negotiation, but it should have no real impact other than where the wedding will be.  (I'm totally kidding on that part btw.)  What should matter, is once it's decided, both sides have 10 turns to make the necessary preparations.  Now, the wedding preparations themselves should be abstracted methinks.  In my mind, it should just take some GPT and Materials out of both players treasuries.  But the Bride-Side will get an extra option...  They should get the option to spend more GPT, and some Specialists, (Since we're going into 1.1 soon,) to give the Daughter Espionage training.

This of course poses the problem of, "Okay, but now that Daughter's finally have an advantage for being married away, there has to be a way to break that advantage."  This is very very true of course...  And it's one major detail I've been unable to figure out a good solution for.  My first idea was to have it be a Challenged INT check every turn, Spouse vs Spouse, but that wouldn't work...  The Daughter is providing important, strategically relevant information...  The solution, therefore, needs to also be strategically relevant, even if it's only to that single problem.  It can't be hit-or-miss, blind-luck type stuff.  Whatever it is, it needs to be difficult enough to warrant not wanting to use it, saving up resources for it (Whatever kind of resources those may be, and no, I don't just mean the kind you can spend,) something along those lines...

Got a ton more to add to this section, but I'll save it for other posts.

 

Heroes:  I have some serious gripes with how bland and weak the current Champs are...  Again, I've plied my ideas in other threads, like letting the Farmer/Researcher/Merchant heroes level up slowly over time just for providing their bonuses, and giving us skills to choose from for combat-capable Champs, and even dividing the types of more, Heroes, Champions and Adventurers, giving each 'Type' a specific forte, or archetype if you will.

But the more and more I think about it...  The more and more I come to the same conclusion...  It's not their blandness that's the problem.  It's THEM that are the problem.  Heroes are supposed to be Heroic.  And these ones aren't...  Now, before I shoot my idea out there, let's look at the definition of a 'Hero' in relation to the world of video games.

Hero:  A strong unit, potentially with special abilities pertaining to their realm of choice.

Let's look at two examples.  Warcraft III has Heroes, and actually defines its gameplay around them.  These heroes are COMPLETELY unique, there is nothing about them that any other unit within the same game shares.  They have their own models, their own weapons, their own abilities.  Heroic.

Civilization.  They technically have Heroes too.  Great People.  Great General, Artist, Scientist, Engineer, and Merchant.  Civ 5 also happens to be Elementals main competition.  Each of these 'Heroes' does something useful in their own right.  As a matter of fact, each of these 'Heroes' are capable of doing many useful things.  All five of them may start a Golden Age for their associated Realm.  General's passively improve the Combat abilities of troops within two tiles of themselves, or are capable of erecting a Citadel, which provides an amazing defense bonus for the unit stationed within, and hurts any enemy within two tiles of it at the end of the players turn.  Artists may 'Culture Bomb' an opposing Civ, or open land, to instantly expand the cultural borders, or they can build a Landmark for a per-turn culture bonus.  I could go on, but suffice it to say, they all have both Tactical and Strategic value.  These Heroes are earned, not bought.

Which brings me to the point of this...  Heroes are EARNED...  Heroes...  Are Earned.  Heroes....  Are....  Earned....  I'm proposing we do away with the current Hero system entirely.  People in other threads have suggested having our Mundane units, upon reaching a certain level or accomplishing a particularly noteworthy task, be promoted to Heroes.  YES.  Let's do that.  Particularly the part about noteworthy tasks.  Now we just need to define what noteworthy tasks are, and get those implemented into the game somehow...  No good ideas there...

"Well, what will we do about Spouses then?  And what happens to all the non-combat Heroes?"  Well, spouses are easy.  Wouldn't be hard for them to add a "Finding Love" quest out there in the world for ya, or even make it so you just happen to marry an especially pretty girl from your Realm, or hell, why not just start with a Spouse?  I know this thread is discussing both Dynasties and Heroes, so the idea of getting rid of Heroes is counter-intuitive...  But I'm discussing them as separate issues, so nyah.  Yes, I know, it doesn't make it any less of a problem...  I've already given some ideas, your turn.  And the non-combat Heroes?  NOT NECESSARY.  They're non-combat heroes...  That's not heroic at all, that's just mundane.  How is Janusk, the Emperor's Attorney, somehow a Hero?  That's really what all of those guys are, in the end, are glorified Attorney's and Bureaucrats...  Both of which are mundane, pointless, and hated globally, so why keep 'em?

 

I now open the floor to you, the Readers and Posters.

9,113 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

The problem is that Stardock doesn't call the Hero, Hero. They call them Notable Person. Sooo I don't think that they are hero. They are just people that noticeable by your sovereign because of their past deed. Of course, some of them have the capability to become a hero, but many of them just people who can help your sovereign build the kingdom.

Soooo, rather than Hero, I prefer to call the Officer / helper / wiseman / etc. They are just the "officer" from the Koei's game Romance of the Three Kingdom, Nobles / known people from the game "Europa Universalis Rome". soo... not everyone of them are unique or powerful. But of course, they could be empowered / leveled up to be a hero.

The problem is that they are not important enough to be added in your thorne. They are just stronger version of human unit who has a unique name, unique background, and can level up to be better soldier.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Brainsucker, reply 1
The problem is that Stardock doesn't call the Hero, Hero. They call them Notable Person. Sooo I don't think that they are hero. They are just people that noticeable by your sovereign because of their past deed. Of course, some of them have the capability to become a hero, but many of them just people who can help your sovereign build the kingdom.

Soooo, rather than Hero, I prefer to call the Officer / helper / wiseman / etc. They are just the "officer" from the Koei's game Romance of the Three Kingdom, Nobles / known people from the game "Europa Universalis Rome". soo... not everyone of them are unique or powerful. But of course, they could be empowered / leveled up to be a hero.

The problem is that they are not important enough to be added in your thorne. They are just stronger version of human unit who has a unique name, unique background, and can level up to be better soldier.
End of Brainsucker's quote

Brainsucker:

That's exactly my point though.  They're given all this flair, and for what?  To have a unique name?  I call shenanigans.

And the naming doesn't matter.  Champions, Heroes, Notable People, are all, in reality, the same thing, it just depends on which game you're playing.  Where they're different is in practice.  (Read: Practical Application of said unit/feature.)  Champions and Heroes, and even Officers, from other games, are all worth it.  I'm familiar with RTK and the Wei/Wu/Shu timeperiod games in general, like Dynasty Warriors...  And Officers all had one thing in common in those games...  They were stronger, sometimes many many times stronger, than the soldiers they led.  A company led by Xiahou Dun or Cao Cao was bound to be a whole lot stronger than a company led by a lesser known Officer, but even that Officers company was bound to be at least a fair deal stronger than a company led by a completely unknown Officer/No Officer at all.  And all you've done here is reiterated my own statements on the matter...  They aren't special enough, and they should be.  Regardless of what they're called, the community has come to know them as 'Heroes' and 'Champions,' and they should be made worthy of such titles.

On that note, let me reiterate another suggestion that I've posted somewhere else on these forums...

Let's have their be an actual differentiation between 'Heroes,' 'Champions,' and 'Adventurers.'

Heroes would be the people that handle the mundane tasks of your empire in an extraordinary way.  I.E., Merchants producing extra gold.  These units should level up slowly over time just for performing their mundane tasks.  Yes, it doesn't add much to the flavor of these guys, nor does it make them Heroic, but it at least makes them more worthwhile than they are now, which is a good start.

Champions would be your leaders of men.  They could work in a number of ways, from giving morale bonuses to troops, to giving bonuses to specific types of troops, e.g., Non-Mounted Melee soldiers.

Adventurer's would be your Monster and Dragon-Slayers.  They could also work in a number of ways, getting increased loot from monsters and quests, to getting special buffs against monsters, either in general, or based on the type of monster.

 

Ilandil:  I particularly liked the suggestions yourself and others made in https://forums.elementalgame.com/398778 thread.  'That's the [New Idea] How to make champions more important?' thread.  I think many of those things would go GREAT with Elemental, and the only gripe about doing it on the Developer end would be in the implementation, and possibly the coding-in of said features, if the engine doesn't already support that kind of thing, which I'm sure, at least in part, that it already does.

 

Back to the Dynasties here...

With the whole Spy-Daughter thing, I may have found an interesting solution to breaking the advantage.  Hire a Private Investigator.  The only way to make this fair is to have it cost a percentage of your total gold.  I think 15% would be a good start, but to make it -really- fair, have the percentage go up for every, say, 250 gold in your treasury.  So you only have 100 Gold?  15 Gold to hire a PI and find out if the new addition to the family is actually a spy.  250 gold?  Have it cost an even 40 Gold.  1000 Gold?  Have it cost 190.  + 1% for every 250 Gold seems like a good curve, though I think 1.5% would actually be better, and for decimals, always round up.  It could also have the potential to hurt relations with the Daughters Origin Realm if the PI is discovered.  THIS part should be blind luck, either a Coin Toss or certain Rolls should be made, depending on what is decided is best.  I would say give the PI a random INT between (DaughtersInt-5) and (DaughtersINT+3), then make 3 opposed INT checks.  If the PI is beaten twice or more, a Foreign Relations hit is taken in the event the daughter wasn't actually a spy.  In the event she is a Spy, the PI wouldn't find any conclusive evidence.  If the Daughter is beaten twice or more, no Foreign Relation penalty is taken in the even she wasn't a spy.  If she was a spy, she is discovered, and from there, there are MANY possibilities.

She could be executed.

She could be ransomed back to her Origin Realm.

She could be scheduled for execution, but saved by her Spouse because he actually cares about her, and both run away.  Or they could defect to the Daughters Origin Realm.

She could be fed false information from the Target Realm, making all information Origin Realm receives inaccurate.

And so many more.

Stardock, I hope you're taking notes.  Not because I think these ideas are that great, but because I know that you can find a way to make the Dynasty System really live up to its potential, and I think this might be a semi-decent jumping-off point/inspirational facilitator.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Great idea, but I think there should also be a less antagonistic way of making the marriage more worthwhile.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Onionfighter, reply 4
Great idea, but I think there should also be a less antagonistic way of making the marriage more worthwhile.
End of Onionfighter's quote

Agreed.  However, it's still helpful to brainstorm these things, even if our ideas are totally off the wall, like mine usually are.  Like I said, hopefully we can provide Stardock with a basis for inspiration and ideas.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

RikazeMA, your wall of text could have been summed up in a few paragraphs.  Frogboy has mentioned that intel is a major AI problem (non cheating) so rejoice, this might get some developer attention.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting RogueCaptain, reply 6
RikazeMA, your wall of text could have been summed up in a few paragraphs.  Frogboy has mentioned that intel is a major AI problem (non cheating) so rejoice, this might get some developer attention.
End of RogueCaptain's quote

Yes, it easily could've been summed up in a few paragraphs, but I'm no good at that.  To maintain a train of thought when posting these things, I have to actually write what I'm thinking.  I tend to think in whole sentences and paragraphs, so keeping it short is not my strong suit.

And it's clear to me you didn't actually read the posts, or even the topic title.  We're not discussing the AI here, and beyond that, we're not discussing the gathering of Intel as a problem.  We're discussing the possibilities of how to improve the Dynasty and Heroes systems.

The post I believe you're referring to was only alluding to the idea of using Married-Away Daughters as a method of collecting Intel on your opponents, or vice versa, as well as how one would combat the threat that would pose.  Again, not discussing the gathering of Intel, or lack thereof, as an issue of any kind.

Again, I ask those of you that post in this forum to offer constructive ideas.  This implies that you read the posts, (Or the parts that matter in the case of my posts,) and then proceed to formulate your thoughts, not the other way around.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Ideally we would want to be able to do some of the politicing outlined in a song of ice and fire, perhaps even have ambasadors within rival courts and bribe notable people to join our side, provide warning of attacks.  (of course princesses would be the primary source of this)

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes I did completely read through your ridiculous great wall of RikazeMa and felt only one area was worth commenting on.  I pointed out the long length to benefit you for future reference so more forumites will read your posts, I was trying to help you because not everyone has my patience.  No good deed must go unpunished.  Since you choose to judge my work without inquiry then I'll repay in kind.  It's disappointing that someone who emphasizes constructive criticism is so critical to the point he can't take any.  Maybe you'd prefer I wrote a wall of text?  I'll repeat myself again, it was constructive criticism only, set an example by taking it thus accordingly or no one will want to post any replies from fear of reprisal.

It's clearly obvious to me you did not properly read my post.  Again I ask you to follow the same rules on this thread that you expect from others or else those actions would be hypocritical.  Your retort was not constructive criticism.

 

What I meant by "developer attention" was that there is an existing obstacle concerning improving the effectiveness of war AI with lack of intel as the cause.  Your sub-suggestion of utilizing the dynasty system to help supply intel might help solve that problem and sounds easier to implement than most of the ideas on average proposed so far.  I wasn't attacking it or promoting it but pointing out that the chances of it being implemented are higher because the devs have discussed it in the past.  Nothing more nothing less.  You can choose to take that and focus on selling the in demand points to Stardock or you can take my observations and throw them over your shoulder, makes no difference to me now.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting RogueCaptain, reply 9
Yes I did completely read through your ridiculous great wall of RikazeMa and felt only one area was worth commenting on.  I pointed out the long length to benefit you for future reference so more forumites will read your posts, I was trying to help you because not everyone has my patience.  No good deed must go unpunished.  Since you choose to judge my work without inquiry then I'll repay in kind.  It's disappointing that someone who emphasizes constructive criticism is so critical to the point he can't take any.  Maybe you'd prefer I wrote a wall of text?  I'll repeat myself again, it was constructive criticism only, set an example by taking it thus accordingly or no one will want to post any replies from fear of reprisal.

It's clearly obvious to me you did not properly read my post.  Again I ask you to follow the same rules on this thread that you expect from others or else those actions would be hypocritical.  Your retort was not constructive criticism.

 

What I meant by "developer attention" was that there is an existing obstacle concerning improving the effectiveness of war AI with lack of intel as the cause.  Your sub-suggestion of utilizing the dynasty system to help supply intel might help solve that problem and sounds easier to implement than most of the ideas on average proposed so far.  I wasn't attacking it or promoting it but pointing out that the chances of it being implemented are higher because the devs have discussed it in the past.  Nothing more nothing less.  You can choose to take that and focus on selling the in demand points to Stardock or you can take my observations and throw them over your shoulder, makes no difference to me now.
End of RogueCaptain's quote

 

Oh.  See, this is why I use walls.  More clarity.  My apologies for the misunderstanding.  On that note, it's not that I can't take criticism, provided it's done in a constructive civilized manner.  Also, thank you for your suggestions regarding my wording and length.  I've been working on it for a long time, but as I said, it's not something I'm any good at.

Back on topic:

What if we didn't remove Heroes completely, and rather, just severely limited them relative to present?  Dropped the number of Combat-Oriented Heroes down to a mere pittance, just a few for each Realm on a map, and then beefed them up a bunch?  Not suggesting we make Heroes capable of decimating entire Armies without a similar, possibly slightly weaker army at their back?  Part of their strength would be derived from being able to accrue a few abilities as they grow in strength.  Abilities would also add a more strategic and tactical element to making them more powerful, since it would require both risking them and finding the best way to make use of those abilities.  It would be a tough decision, considering their rarity.

I would like to see a Ransom system in place for Heroes if that was done though.  Losing such rare beings to bad luck or poor timing would be a harsh blow, and possibly very difficult to recover from.  Monsters should still just kill them, but Bandits, as well as other Realms, would have the option to Ransom them back to you.

RFHolloway:  Really like those ideas.  Especially considering that it's likely you would only ever have a limited number of Daughters, Grand Daughters, etc, to marry away, this makes it possible to still accrue intel without relying solely on Dynasties.  To that end though, I would like to see the Diplomacy system changed a little.  Have it be more of an estimation as opposed to knowing exactly how much a Sovereign likes or dislikes you.  Keep the Hostile, Cool, Neutral, Etc, markers, but remove being able to see absolutely every +1/-1 value.  Some should be available with say an Embassy or something though, but again, it should only show an estimation.  Politics should be shrouded in the same kinds of BS they're shrouded in in real life, imo.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Dynasty Idea:

Concubines.

'Nuff said.