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[Suggestion] New Victory Condition.

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[Suggestion] New Victory Condition.

from Elemental Forums

So far each tech type has an associated victory condition except for Civilization.

For Warfare it's conquest victory, for Magic it's spell of making, for Adventure it's master quest, and for Diplomacy it's diplomatic victory.

For Civilization, I think we should have something along the lines of a Wonder. Yes I know it's been done before, but it is still a viable option.

Besides just taking many turns to build, the Wonder could have a certain tech-level prerequisite in all the other techs. Meaning that, to build a Wonder, you need a bit of magic (scale and scope), warfare (defenses and logistics), adventure (acquired worldly knowledge), and diplomacy (resources from trade).

The Wonder might also require certain artifacts to complete or spells (raise/lower land) to complete.

23,264 views 30 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting random_target, reply 25
First, I want to correct something about the victory conditions.

 

It's true that there is a connection between the victory and the path you take in the research, but each victory condition also requires something besides the research, that takes most of the effort.

In the quest victory for example, it's not that hard to get to the research itself. Most of the effort will be to explore, find and win the actual master quest.

In the spell of mastery, you'll need a lot of effort in arcane research, maybe even more then the spell tech tree.

Even in conquest, you're not exactly required to research the army tech path, theoretically you can win with mostly spells and summons and only a minimal effort there.

 

Back to your suggestion, I think the civilization victory idea should be the path that you can win if you invest mostly in technological advancements. It should require an advanced tech from ALL the paths, and only then you can build the wonder (or wonders) that are required to win.

 

For example, when reaching a certain research of the exploration tree, you will gain an option to research a tech called "knowledge of the past"

With this taken, your kingdom knows everything it can about the past and what the ancient kingdoms could do before the cataclysm.

This tech will open an advanced option in the other tech trees (with most of the techs as prerequisites).

When finishing most of the civilization tree for example, if you have the exploration tech, you'll get an option to research a tech that symbolized the realization that your kingdom now reached the technological levels of the past, allowing you to build a wonder called "the great monument".

Same thing with the conquest and magic trees, leading to the buildings called "the great war academy" and "the obelisk of magic"

 

Each of the said buildings will be a "one per nation" buildings, shouldn't be too expensive or hard to build, and should be automatically destroyed if taken from an enemy. If you manage to build all three, you get the civilization victory by proving you can not only match but go beyond the knowledge that was in the times before the cataclysm.
End of random_target's quote

 

Very interesting idea. :thumbsup:

Best regards,
Steven. 

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

When finishing most of the civilization tree for example, if you have the exploration tech, you'll get an option to research a tech that symbolized the realization that your kingdom now reached the technological levels of the past, allowing you to build a wonder called "the great monument".

Same thing with the conquest and magic trees, leading to the buildings called "the great war academy" and "the obelisk of magic"


Each of the said buildings will be a "one per nation" buildings, shouldn't be too expensive or hard to build, and should be automatically destroyed if taken from an enemy. If you manage to build all three, you get the civilization victory by proving you can not only match but go beyond the knowledge that was in the times before the cataclysm.
End of quote

I think this is an interesting idea for a civilization victory. However, I think that they would need to be both hard and expensive to balance the degree of difficulty with the other victory conditions. If you make them too cheep and easy to build, then you incentivize a rush to these buildings.

What I think would be interesting would be to make all three wonders require being built in the same level 5 city, and then adding some mechanic where after the first one is finished the city in question becomes visible to every other faction. Otherwise, a faction could simply rush through the civic tech tree, build all 3 buildings without anyone knowing where or how to stop you. As for the same city req, this would be necessary to stop a player from simply starting all three buildings in three different cities concurrently.

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kenata, reply 27


What I think would be interesting would be to make all three wonders require being built in the same level 5 city, and then adding some mechanic where after the first one is finished the city in question becomes visible to every other faction. Otherwise, a faction could simply rush through the civic tech tree, build all 3 buildings without anyone knowing where or how to stop you. As for the same city req, this would be necessary to stop a player from simply starting all three buildings in three different cities concurrently.
End of kenata's quote

 

I think the balance should come mostly from researching of 3-4 techs on different trees that give nothing except access to the victory buildings.

Not only that, but to access them you will also require to research most of the trees (all of them, not just the civilization tree), that's certainly balanced with the time and effort it takes to achieve the other victories.

 

I agree it should be built on a city size 5, but I don't think it should be more expensive than other "wonders", or placed in the same city.

 

This is more or less the equivalent to the space victory in CIV games.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting random_target, reply 28

Quoting kenata, reply 27

What I think would be interesting would be to make all three wonders require being built in the same level 5 city, and then adding some mechanic where after the first one is finished the city in question becomes visible to every other faction. Otherwise, a faction could simply rush through the civic tech tree, build all 3 buildings without anyone knowing where or how to stop you. As for the same city req, this would be necessary to stop a player from simply starting all three buildings in three different cities concurrently.
 

I think the balance should come mostly from researching of 3-4 techs on different trees that give nothing except access to the victory buildings.

Not only that, but to access them you will also require to research most of the trees (all of them, not just the civilization tree), that's certainly balanced with the time and effort it takes to achieve the other victories.

 

I agree it should be built on a city size 5, but I don't think it should be more expensive than other "wonders", or placed in the same city.

 

This is more or less the equivalent to the space victory in CIV games.
End of random_target's quote

Considering these 'Wonders' would be victory conditions, I find it completely logical to make them take longer than standard wonders, as well as needing to be in the same city, for a couple reasons.

First, assuming the idea that the city becomes visible to everyone is implemented, it makes it possible for everyone to gang up on you to stop you from producing the structures.  The problem is, with the time it takes to cross the map at present, if you have it take 'Normal Wonder Time,' they'll never even get close before you finish the wonders, particularly if you're able to build all three concurrently in your first 3 Level 5 Cities, unless they're already in the process of conquering you of course.  This remains true even if they ignore every other city you own, and even more true if you have a city grown out across a choke point.  It makes consolidating forces in that choke and cutting your losses to defend that one city far too easy otherwise.

And since we're assuming that you'll have a large portion of all the tech trees explored, since it would be necessary for this victory, in order for any other realm to stop you, they'd have to be ahead of you in at least 2 of the 4 trees.  (I'm not even counting Diplomacy for this, since it does nothing to help you stop someone from winning this kind of a victory.)  Those trees would almost certainly have to be Magic and Warfare as well, since the other ones would be moot towards stopping said player in any regard other than resource production.  But, if you're going for this victory, it's likely you're doing it because you're already sure you have a rather large lead on your opponents in Research Production, making the idea of anyone being ahead of you somewhat laughable, despite you having to spread your research across multiple trees while they only need 1 or 2.  The extra time it would take to produce three double or triple-cost wonders in a single city would both help the opposition to close the tech gap, as well as give them time to actually use said tech against you, while still hopefully allowing them time to cross the map to even get to you.

Conceptually, it's a sound idea to keep the wonder creation time similar, and allow them to be separate, but logistically speaking, it's imbalanced heavily in favor of the person building the wonders, since they don't have to set up supply trains to deal with anything.  Their supply trains are already set up, and they only have to defend a small group of cities.  Even if each wonder took 40 turns, like I said, this means they need 3 Level 5 Cities capable of producing the wonder, a Choke-Point, and Time.  It's basically a guaranteed win if you don't drag the time scope out to near-epic proportions.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting RikazeMA, reply 29

Considering these 'Wonders' would be victory conditions, I find it completely logical to make them take longer than standard wonders, as well as needing to be in the same city, for a couple reasons.

First, assuming the idea that the city becomes visible to everyone is implemented, it makes it possible for everyone to gang up on you to stop you from producing the structures.  The problem is, with the time it takes to cross the map at present, if you have it take 'Normal Wonder Time,' they'll never even get close before you finish the wonders, particularly if you're able to build all three concurrently in your first 3 Level 5 Cities, unless they're already in the process of conquering you of course.  This remains true even if they ignore every other city you own, and even more true if you have a city grown out across a choke point.  It makes consolidating forces in that choke and cutting your losses to defend that one city far too easy otherwise.

And since we're assuming that you'll have a large portion of all the tech trees explored, since it would be necessary for this victory, in order for any other realm to stop you, they'd have to be ahead of you in at least 2 of the 4 trees.  (I'm not even counting Diplomacy for this, since it does nothing to help you stop someone from winning this kind of a victory.)  Those trees would almost certainly have to be Magic and Warfare as well, since the other ones would be moot towards stopping said player in any regard other than resource production.  But, if you're going for this victory, it's likely you're doing it because you're already sure you have a rather large lead on your opponents in Research Production, making the idea of anyone being ahead of you somewhat laughable, despite you having to spread your research across multiple trees while they only need 1 or 2.  The extra time it would take to produce three double or triple-cost wonders in a single city would both help the opposition to close the tech gap, as well as give them time to actually use said tech against you, while still hopefully allowing them time to cross the map to even get to you.

Conceptually, it's a sound idea to keep the wonder creation time similar, and allow them to be separate, but logistically speaking, it's imbalanced heavily in favor of the person building the wonders, since they don't have to set up supply trains to deal with anything.  Their supply trains are already set up, and they only have to defend a small group of cities.  Even if each wonder took 40 turns, like I said, this means they need 3 Level 5 Cities capable of producing the wonder, a Choke-Point, and Time.  It's basically a guaranteed win if you don't drag the time scope out to near-epic proportions.
End of RikazeMA's quote

 

Okay, good points.

 

How about this:

Instead of one building per tech type (3-5 buildings, depending on which tech trees are included), the requirement is three or four "monuments" for each tech (total of ~16 buildings)

 

The advantages are that now it will also require you to have several lvl 5 cities instead of just one or two with high production, which fits the concept of a civilization victory.

Also, 16 buildings, even if you split them between several cities, still require lot's of time. And since lvl 5 cities aren't that easy to create, you probably won't have 16 cities to build the monuments in (and if you do, you deserve a quick victory)

 

Other than that, the warning (and the AI reaction change) can be either when you get the required techs, so the enemy will get a warning before you even have a chance to build.

 

I don't know what the time to construct the buildings should be, but you are right, it should be short enough to make the research the hardest part, but also long enough to give the enemy time to attack you.

It also depends on changes made in the 1.1 in the field of logistics, teleportation spells and general unit movement speed.