When you say specs for the 3 or 4 test rigs, do you mean for the game to be published with the specifics of all the hardware and software versions used in those machines? For example, Asus Geforce XXX with XXXMB DDRX, Intel Core iX @2.XGHz, XGB DDRX RAM, Soundcard X, Windows X XXbit, DirectX um....X, .NET X, Service Pack X, etc.?

Yeah I guess that's the idea. The potential dev would only list specs for what has been tested & is *known* to work 100% for that game, an extremely "narrow" subset of hardware configurations that is "known-good" for that game ... obviously the test rigs would use the most common (present) configs, also obviously this would minimize profits a lot, but the dev is working alone thus minimizing costs also.

Well let's say that a dev will actually post their test systems and thus the configs you wanted. I think the next step would be them to tell everyone who does not have that exact config that they are shit out of luck which would be a disaster. Let's just forget the fact that the majority of consumers don't even understand the simple specs posted now so it woudl never happen. I mean I see what you are saying, but I don't think the industry would use the new idea to do better, I think they would want to find ways to do worse for the consumer, aka save a buck.

kool

I always thought the stuff came out for consoles because you could get away with charging more, and console gamers will buy DLC, which PC owners will generally mod in instead.  I think this is the real reason Capcom isn't putting SSFIV on console, they make their money on the DLC largely.  PC owners will mod in better outfits.

As for GBOR- I understand your position on it, but I think many consumers misunderstood to mean full refunds if the game's gameplay was seriously flawed.

As for the longer open betas, that's a good concept- though given the Elemental launch- I am unsure if GalCiv3 will have a sufficient pool of testers since many have said they're reluctant right now.   (I plan on pre-ordering it as of now when you offer it in 2-3 years)

Stardock could fix this by first, not selling tickets to their beta and second, actually getting people into the beta that don't worship the ground they walk on.

That said, the beta is one of the reasons to pre-order, without an open beta , there would be no point in pre-ordering- just wait until it comes out.

Stardock would get a benefit of seeing what the interest is, and it helps them make a proper budget.

That is absolutely idiotic.  Games are tested on probably dozens of PC's...so where would you include this information on the box?  The whole box would be nothing but a list of test configurations.

Then you have the fact where even if someone has every single item listed in a particular configuration, they might have incompatibleappx installed and the game won't work just the same.

And even if you had let's say 30 configuration all sorted out and listed, that probably only accounts for a small percentage of gamers anyways.  People are going to have the parts mixed up, or off brands, or different driver versions, service packs, newer hardware then when the game was released, ect, ect, ect.

I think PC gaming is just not for you, check out an XBox or PS3 dude seriously sounds like it will be more your style and technical level.

That's nonsense. There are games that have large pre-orders all the time, and I do mean ALL THE TIME, that don't use the beta as a carrot stick. Besides, if you actually read what Stardock initially said, you were paying for the beta, not the game which is why, initially, there were to be no refunds for that group.

Well said. 

It does seem like many people (even many who are actually technically inclined) just don't want to expend even a fraction of the effort it used to require (more often than not) to install/configure/play PC video games in the past.  With the multitude of hardware configs available today and equally numerous ways to install/configure software we should be ready to expend even more effort than it used to take.  So why aren't we "ok" with that?

I suppose at this point everyone playing any video games at all has most probably at least once come into contact with one or more of the consoles.  This would make it obvious that when one plays a console game most often it will just work, where pc games seem to (I think due to the multitude of hardware/software configs possible these days) almost require some form of troubleshooting/tweaking upon attempting to play.

Let's face it, we've all become a little console-spoiled. 

While NES and SNES didn't require you to make a boot disk for every freaking game to get DOS to allocate enough memory to start a game of Serf City, I still remember blowing on a lot of cartridges, turning off game decks (i think we called them that then), to let them cool and then just restarting all the time to get rid of graphic garbles. Hell even the consoles now have some maintance issues... just check out the average failure rate of the 360. I've got computers running that are older than when those things go out AND my SNES still works. Do most games just work when you throw in the disc, sure... but that's changing. Just look at the forced firmware updates, games that require harddrives when some of the lower end consoles don't have them. The consoles are quickly complicating things already... how many versions are there of the PS3 now, which have PS2 compatibility and which don't... which version has what chipset... heh.

All true.  So maybe what I said (becoming console-spoiled) happed a few years back already and what we're seeing now is the crossing of consoles and PC's.  Someday we might not be able to tell the difference anymore.  

Well your point was still a good one. It takes more effort to play PC games even if you have everything above specs and are up to date...  i mean just toyign with routers... argh. I have a Wii and for the first time in over a decade, people feel confident enough to buy me games on a system I have. They were completely intimidated out of buying things for the PC years ago. Which is unfortunate, not because I need people to buy stuff for me, but because they felt that market is so so unapproachable. Heck I know a lot of about this stuff, and I was trying to somewhat discreetly trying to  ask my sister about her thoughts on the PS3 Move as she was going to get one, but it turns out you need more than the one controller for some of the games and <g> you used to just be able to walk into a store and say Sony and be good.

I think the console  is in much more danger then the PC (by console I mean 360/PS3-style, maybe Wii-style also)

The real issue comes down to price.  Simply put, consoles are getting too expensive, and the console games are getting too expensive.  PC just provides much better value per game, and an average PC and a console's price are converging.  Once DD becomes commonplace, I suspect the consoles will start to get phased out shortly thereafter, unless something truly innovative comes along to prolong their lifespan (The Wii helped, but the's Wii's gimmick has run of steam)

Handhelds will be fine, I suspect Nintendo or Apple will come up with a solution between the Iphone and DS that will be wildly succesfful.

Okay, I had to stop reading through every...  Single...  Post...  Around page 5.5, so bear with me if I repeat something that's been said.

Yes, PC Games these days have launch issues more often than not.  Some more than others, as all us Elemental owners already know.

Yes, it's hard to make it work on a broad range of systems without TONS of QA first, or a longer Beta, which as has already been stated, will be done next time.  (Good for you Brad, learning from this experience, well done.  Only thing I learned was...  Well, nothing, I already knew Stardock would pour a ton of effort into Elemental because of the horrid launch...  I guess I learned how dedicated ya'all really are...  But that's not saying much, because you all already knew you were, and so did most everyone else here...)

Yes, I think Consoles might be dying...  MIGHT BE.  It's getting about time for M$, Nintendo and $ony to release their next set of consoles...  (I didn't have a good symbolic thingy for Nintendo, sorry.)  But there was nothing at E3 this year...  Which means they've pushed the curve back by a year for some reason, though what that is I can't fathom.

Nesrie, you mentioned having PC's from way back that still work while the 360's failure rate is so high.  There's a series of funny images on the web if you can find them related to this topic.  It'll show like an Amiga or Commodore or an NES with the caption 'Still Works,' and an image of a 360 with the Ring of Death.  Made me hate that I bought one even more...

Brad, if you're still paying attention...  About the GBOR stuff earlier...  You said people can read into it whatever they want, doesn't make it true.

How then, is it our Bill of Rights?  Yes, I understand that, in that specific context, it was something of a ridiculous demand, especially to be put upon the GBOR...  And while the GBOR is a well-crafted document that very accurately states the major issues plaguing your industry at present...  It does not express the intent of Gamers to have their rights respected.  This is not because it does not accurately state what it is we want, or because we cannot read into it...  But because, as of now, it is merely a platform for your Honest Practices movement, and while that's all well and good...  Well, let's look at the only example in History we have of this event...  The Bill of Rights, and consequently, the Constitution of the United States of America.

Why was this document created?  As a protest against the outrageous taxes that Mother England was imposing upon its colonies.  In its essence, it was exactly what the GBOR currently is...  An Honest Practices movement...  And now look at it...  We have Gun-Control movements, politicians needing a say on whether or not we can say 'One Nation Under God,' in school's, whether or not we can even teach Evolution in schools or not, Religious Zealots trying to get Capitol Hill to make a ruling on Abortion...  While none of these actions are inherently bad, they all are bad insofar as they defy the very principles upon which our nation was founded.  Antidisestablishmentarianism, and our Constitutional Rights.  (For easier reading, anti-dis-establishment-arianism.  And in case you didn't know, since most people don't, that's the separation between church and state.)

They're willing to completely forget our Second Amendment rights in a lot of states because idiots with guns kill people, or let their kids get at their guns.  They're willing to turn our Nations PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE into an abhorrent monster of Religious Fanaticism.  Education, a mostly government run institution, is under fire for teaching a Scientifically sound theory and has been for years now.  And now the Christian Church's are trying to sway Washington into their corner.  Yes, this all sounds like a platform for me to go on about my political bias.  Damn straight.  Brad, you've brought politics into the Gaming World with that GBOR.  You're about to incite a war...  Not like the one they had to deal with back then, but a war of sorts none-the-less.  Unless you do it for the right reasons, for the spirit of every gamer...  Well, like I said...  Look at our Constitution and National Values...  What's left of them.  Tread carefully, and remember...  You may think History repeating itself is bull-shit...  It does repeat itself, but it doesn't mean that the Universe doesn't have a sense of humor in how to go about it.

Edit:  And before I get flamed for this by the forumites...  I may come across as arrogant, that I'm telling Brad what to think here...  While not my intention, I may very well be being arrogant, but that arrogance is sorely and painfully earned in this regard, so I would ask that you not judge me on this one.

You make some good points here.  The GBOR certainly has a very wide range of potential applicability.

Best regards,
Steven.

I have friends still on single core Pentium 4 systems with 1 gig of RAM.  One of them is an indie developer (who plans to upgrade after his current project is done.)

I wouldn't say consoles are dead/dying as long as so many people aren't bothering to upgrade their PCs.

That's not true at all. In actual fact diversity has gone down. There's fewer CPU makers. Fewer video card makers. A lot fewer sound card makers. Unified APIs that didn't exist back then. Did you ever go through the nonsense of configuring sound cards in the 80s and 90s? Games would come with a list of what types of cards they supported, which usually wasn't all of them. Now that isn't a problem.

What's gone up is capability. If you really wanted to make a game that used the same amount of system resources and capability as a game in the 80s, one guy could still do it in a few weeks. But it wouldn't sell because 320x200 single thread games that have 1MB of RAM to work with simply don't give you the same kind of gameplay that you get using a quad core with 2GB of RAM.

Fewer makers with far more products.  Far more driver revisions.  Far more APIs.  Far more broken features (take for example the 8600GTS which as I recall has broken DirectX 10 features, even though MS wasn't supposed to allow that.)

I don't know why 'the 80s' has any relevance whatsoever to this conversation.  The 90s?  Sure.  That makes sense.  A few things more relevant to the modern environment happened then.  But in the 80s?  Yeah...stuff happened back then.  What it has to do with anything now I have no idea.

Civ5 worked well for me on release day.

What's stopping the next generation of dedicated entertainment consoles (or even this generation, for that matter) from taking advantage of digital distribution?  All three of the major brands are already on-board in a limited capacity and it'll only get more popular as time goes on.  I don't see why this would be the death-knell for the non-PC gaming market.

On top of that, we'll see just how long the software price advantage lasts.  It seems to me that the push for a standard $60 retail price is already underway by the larger developer/publishers.

The limited capacity is artificial, too - the consoles are fully capable of supporting full-game downloads and at least MS offers some of the older, full games on the marketplace on the 360.

However, I think a bigger issue that might be worth considering is that while computers are expected to be online at this day and age, consoles... not so much. Couple that with the fact (well, at least anecdotally) that there are more single-player games still coming out for consoles than the PC, and I wouldn't be surprised if the growth of digital downloads on consoles is substantially slower overall than on PC.

Right now?  Sure but the point:  If the shift towards DD suddenly becomes so drastic that console manufacturers and developers start feeling that hard-media sales are being 'threatened' (which, personally, I think is a pretty silly thing to say about the state of things now), then there's nothing stopping them from putting more effort into those distribution channels that they're already using.  I don't see why DD becoming a universal standard would mean the death of dedicated consoles.

DD can't become a universal standard as long as a lot of countries are stuck with bandwidth caps.  We'll see how it is past 2015, but I wouldn't expect DD to take over completely before that.

There's also a possibility the US will get caps also, due to non-existant regulation and a very pro-business political climate not seen since the Gilded Age.