PC Games no longer work at release

You know it, I know it, shoot even the media is figuring it out. New PC games don't work, they just don't. Here are some examples of this and the different ways the companies responded...

Hellgate London: oh man was this one bad at launch. Did they fix it? Sort of, but it was too late for Flagship

Empire Total War: this game didn't work on my computer for about six months after launch. About a month after I started playing it again thinking that they were going to focus on it for at least a year, Napolean Total War came out. So Empire gets backburnered, but TotalWar is not going to die as a franchise anytime soon.

There are other examples but we all know them. So if the new reality is game company's are allowed to sell us partially made computer games, where does that leave us, the clients?

We, as supporters of this industry, now have to vote for the products that we think will be good games. We cannot afford to wait till these games are good, we have to give the company some money near release or they will get frowned upon from their corporate overlords. We have to be a little carefree with out money.

That being said, when I heard that 1.09 was out, and that Kael was in. I drove to the store and bought a copy of Elemental that same night! If I am being forced to judge a game based on the content of the other things those same people have produced, and not on the game itself, then I am forced to vote StarDock.

None of the other companies actually seem to care as much about their product and reputation as StarDock does.

81,146 views 174 replies
Reply #1 Top

Ive had many new PC games that won't work at release over the past decade, most recently Elven legacy. It doesn't work on my old windows xp nor my new windows 7 system. I actually feel that a game should work out-of-the-box that matches the system specs, that doesn't seem like much to ask for.

In general, newer games sux quality wise in relation to older games (in many different ways: weak AIs, shi**y or no manuals, bugs & patches, and just flat-out non-working). It's very obvious to me that modern devs only care about the money, everything else it secondary or non-existent.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting cpl_rk, reply 1
Ive had many new PC games that won't work at release over the past decade, most recently Elven legacy. It doesn't work on my old windows xp nor my new windows 7 system. I actually feel that a game should work out-of-the-box that matches the system specs, that doesn't seem like much to ask for.

In general, newer games sux quality wise in relation to older games (in many different ways: weak AIs, shi**y or no manuals, bugs & patches, and just flat-out non-working). It's very obvious to me that modern devs only care about the money, everything else it secondary or non-existent.
End of cpl_rk's quote

 

It's that or making computer games is really fucking hard.  Making a game for a console is different than a computer.  If Xiacorp makes a game for Xbox, I know that generally, it will run the same on every single Xbox out there.  If I make one for a computer, then I can only test out so many different computer specs and then hope my game works on most when it's released and then hope I can patch it quickly for those it doesn't work well on.  That doesn't explain crappy AI, or lazy art work where armor clips through and looks terrible, or other flaws that come from design choices, but it does explain a lot of the bugs.

Reply #3 Top

I personally think the problem is not in the quality of the code (in most cases) but rather the huge variances in hardware that simply did not exist 10 or 15 years ago.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting GCFL, reply 3
I personally think the problem is not in the quality of the code (in most cases) but rather the huge variances in hardware that simply did not exist 10 or 15 years ago.
End of GCFL's quote

 

Then modern devs or software companies need to increase the size of their QA department, number of testers, or add to whoever it is that is responsible for covering this aspect of quality ... which they don't do because they're greedy (the "zeitgeist" effect/phenomena).

Reply #5 Top

Quoting cpl_rk, reply 4

Quoting GCFL, reply 3I personally think the problem is not in the quality of the code (in most cases) but rather the huge variances in hardware that simply did not exist 10 or 15 years ago.

 

Then modern devs or software companies need to increase the size of their QA department, number of testers, or add to whoever it is that is responsible for covering this aspect of quality ... which they don't do because they're greedy (the "zeitgeist" effect/phenomena).
End of cpl_rk's quote

Well, maybe. But in reality, it is just not possible. I can tell you from experience that seemingly equal systems can act different, I had such an issue recently when I was programming DirectX test stuff on my notebook, where it run without issues, but wouldn't start on my desktop system. No error message, no debug information, it would just plain crash (and my assembly sucks, I can't debug with that yet).

So what I had to do was reinstall some C++ Runtimes, even though the same version was already installed. Maybe some library was corrupt? I don't know. And that was an easy issue to figure out... still took me some time though. But there are other problems in modern programming. A lot of them.

Maybe you want to take a look at the Direct X graphics adapter capabilities sheet (that comes with the Direct X SDK, dunno if Microsoft put it up somewhere else). It's huge, and it lists different command capabilities for different GPUs. My professor told me it can take up to 20,000 lines of code just to check the installed GPUs abilities (if you're really, really thorough). That is one of the reasons he told me to never agree to write a brand new engine. :P

Anyway, software just got extremely complex over the years, as well as hardware did. Back in the days, you did not even have to worry about GPUs. You had a VGA card that could draw super duper pixels on your screen. Now, you have different shader models, VRAM, GPU speeds, whatever...

Well, long story short, it is not only not feasible to have every thinkable hard- and software set up available for QA, it's impossible. Even the same GPU types manufactured by different companies can act up differnently. It's just the nature of semi-conductor microchips. And don't get me started with what magnificent things windows can do in the background...

Sorry for the long text, and sorry for any mistakes, English is not my native language! :D

Reply #6 Top

Well, maybe. But in reality, it is just not possible. I can tell you from experience that seemingly equal systems can act different, I had such an issue recently when I was programming DirectX test stuff on my notebook, where it run without issues, but wouldn't start on my desktop system. No error message, no debug information, it would just plain crash (and my assembly sucks, I can't debug with that yet).

So what I had to do was reinstall some C++ Runtimes, even though the same version was already installed. Maybe some library was corrupt? I don't know. And that was an easy issue to figure out... still took me some time though. But there are other problems in modern programming. A lot of them.

Maybe you want to take a look at the Direct X graphics adapter capabilities sheet (that comes with the Direct X SDK, dunno if Microsoft put it up somewhere else). It's huge, and it lists different command capabilities for different GPUs. My professor told me it can take up to 20,000 lines of code just to check the installed GPUs abilities (if you're really, really thorough). That is one of the reasons he told me to never agree to write a brand new engine.

Anyway, software just got extremely complex over the years, as well as hardware did. Back in the days, you did not even have to worry about GPUs. You had a VGA card that could draw super duper pixels on your screen. Now, you have different shader models, VRAM, GPU speeds, whatever...

Well, long story short, it is not only not feasible to have every thinkable hard- and software set up available for QA, it's impossible. Even the same GPU types manufactured by different companies can act up differnently. It's just the nature of semi-conductor microchips. And don't get me started with what magnificent things windows can do in the background...

Sorry for the long text, and sorry for any mistakes, English is not my native language!
End of quote

Heck, I'm still trying to understand how the combustion engine works????????:S

Reply #7 Top

Is it getting closer to that appointed time where PCs become standardised? Where are all the ISO fascists when you need them?

PC Home Mark I

PC Home Mark II

PC Business Chevron I

PC Business Chevron VII

PC Gamer Warp 5

PC Gamer Warp 10

 

Cue the 2027 reasons why this wouldn't work in:

3...

2...

1...

Reply #8 Top

Quoting cpl_rk, reply 4

Quoting GCFL, reply 3I personally think the problem is not in the quality of the code (in most cases) but rather the huge variances in hardware that simply did not exist 10 or 15 years ago.


 

Then modern devs or software companies need to increase the size of their QA department, number of testers, or add to whoever it is that is responsible for covering this aspect of quality ... which they don't do because they're greedy (the "zeitgeist" effect/phenomena).
End of cpl_rk's quote

 

That's one of the things Stardock had mentioned, was that they regretted not having as sizable a beta as they probably should have. A lot of companies go through many alpha/beta stages, with many users, but then a lot of companies don't, for fear of either details on the game being released before they're cemented, or merely out of desire to avoid handling the distribution and tracking that goes into a large beta.

 

Looking back, companies tend to have much better releases if they have open betas or even large closed betas. And even if they have a rocky release, such as Elemental, that community is in place and able to help them fix issues much more quickly than a company relying upon the first round of buyers to respond. The community put in place by beta testers is something that helps build the foundation for a good game. If no one plays, then why would the developer waste time and money to fix it?

Reply #9 Top

PC Games are far more complex today then they were even a mere five years ago.  Go back as far as ten years, and the games today look like advanced Alien Technology in comparison to what was around at the time.  This step in complexity is why companies like to licence third party engines, such as the Unreal Engine 3 or the Source Engine.  They're proven pieces of technology that remove the issue most developers have.  Brad's talked about before: Elemental is using a brand new engine and new engines always have problems.  It's because of the sheer level of complexity that these problems arise, and why things like patching Console Games became "the norm".

When I buy a game, I expect it to work.  If it doesn't work, I expect that it will be made to work in a timely manner.  If it isn't made to work, then I simply never buy from that company again and advise everyone I know to do the same.  If EA Games had of released Elemental, it would have been patched to version 1.02 and then abandonded in favour of next year's instalment.
Stardock released Elemental and it was in a bit of a mess.  However, they had the Good Will of their previous games; we knew they'd fix it, and they are fixing it.  This will buy them more Good Will.  Companies like Activision Blizzard don't have Good Will with their customers - if their games don't work, people won't wait around for them to be fixed.  It's as good as dead.  They literally have to release games that function 99% perfect because they don't have the same standing that Stardock has: their customer's Trust.

Reply #10 Top

Games being released in a bad sad state is nothing new it's been happening since Win98 and has gotten progresssively WORSE over the years. It's now a no fretter to release games in a crappy unplayable state BECAUSEEEEEE many IDIOTS will still pay for CRAP OUT OF THE BOX. If morons would stop doing this then these games would stop being released this way or better yet might finally be released in a playable bug free state. I could list a ton of games that were horrible releases that got 90's and above for reviews too. Even reviewers palms are washed by these major corporations. Under the table shenannigans going on daily. PC gaming is getting as bad as government with lies lies and more lies and increasing the price to buy those lies.

So I will always say you have nobody to blame but yourself if you got a crappy game out of the box. You know it's going to be crappy, you were told it was going to be crappy but you didn't listen. I don't know why people think Beta testers are nothing but liars. They are about the last truth we have left in the PC gaming industry. If they say it suks and will suck out of the box you better believe them from now on.

Also the proper way to buy PC games nowadays is: Wait at least 1 year after release. By that time it will have been patched several times or as many times as it's going to be patched. It will be onsale for less than $10 many times. It prevents you from being frustrated and you also save a ton of money. I buy up to 50 games a year if I want to for the same budgeted money I used to spend on a mere 10 games at $40. So all it takes is a little patience and not minding being behind a year in playing new games. Trust me once you get into that first year and start seeing all the games you can get for under $10 and how many you won't even care about new releases that you KNOW are going to be crap out of the box. You KNOW IT you've always KNOWN it....so why do you keep paying for it? Would you pay $10000 for a new car without an engine?

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Femmefatal48, reply 10
might finally be released in a playable bug free state
End of Femmefatal48's quote

For an example of why this shall not be, try looking out "bush hid the facts" on Wikipedia to find out about a bug that was in Notepad from Windows NT through XP. Simply put, some bugs are beyond a game developer's ability to fix and may be hard to work around.

Reply #12 Top

Once you replace 'selling product' with 'giving out permissions for a price', it all comes to senses. They are NOT selling you anything according to the laws worldwide. So as long as IP holders can write 'AS IS' in EULAs and get away with it, we will receive crap in a box.

Reply #13 Top

I always pre-order and purchase games that I'm interested in on release. This is partly to support the developers and publishers of those games (by paying more for their product), and also partly to encourage those companies and others to make more of those types of games that I enjoy. As has been stated, the PC Game Industry is diminishing, and with it, there has been a reduction in the number of successful new IPs.

My first real PC was a Tandy 1000SL with Deskmate OS, so I've been playing PC games for a good while now, and it is saddening to see the current state of affairs in the industry, and where things look likely to be headed. Speaking for myself, I can bare the poor release states of PC games, as long as I believe that the situation will be remedied. In the meantime, I enjoy being part of the community that helps to develop these games through useful feedback and suggestions.

I vote with my wallet in support of PC games, as I think a delayed vote or a no-vote will eventually become a vote for console-only games. While I think that better measures can be taken pre-release, I also concur with others that the scale of technical complexity and the scope of compatibility issues are the overriding causes of PC games being broken on release.

Reply #14 Top

Yes, this is all we need. More customers accepting the piles of shit they're given and giving companies a pass.

 

Bravo Elemental forums, you never cease to amaze me with your apologies and fanboyisms.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Serendreus, reply 5
 I was programming DirectX test stuff on my notebook, where it run without issues, but wouldn't start on my desktop system. No error message, no debug information, it would just plain crash (and my assembly sucks, I can't debug with that yet). So what I had to do was reinstall some C++ Runtimes, even though the same version was already installed. Maybe some library was corrupt? I don't know. And that was an easy issue to figure out... still took me some time though. But there are other problems in modern programming. A lot of them. Maybe you want to take a look at the Direct X graphics adapter capabilities sheet (that comes with the Direct X SDK, dunno if Microsoft put it up somewhere else). It's huge, and it lists different command capabilities for different GPUs.
End of Serendreus's quote

I have stopped "dropping" "acid" 35 years ago. 

Reply #16 Top

Quoting solidsmooky, reply 14
Yes, this is all we need. More customers accepting the piles of shit they're given and giving companies a pass.

 

Bravo Elemental forums, you never cease to amaze me with your apologies and fanboyisms.
End of solidsmooky's quote

 

As a rule, in life shit happens. It's not a once off thing. It would probably be more accurate to say that it's a good day when you manage to wipe off the shit from one corner of your eye, just long enough to see in front of you for a few moments.

While I agree that activists can make a difference to a cause, I think there are certain root problems that are too deep and intrinsic to the global society of humans and human-like creatures. What I mean by this is that crusading for PC games that work almost perfectly on release on almost all PC setups that meet the requirements, while all well and good, is probably not going to be as effective as if you targeted those deeper underlying issues.

At any rate, dealing with the issues in that way is for most people counter to what they turn to games for to begin with. I use games to escape normal reality, so I don't want to get too much into the politics and protesting side of things. As such, I will take my half-full cup of gaming, and place it in the sun so that I can look on the bright side. I will then proceed to buy myself a silver pen, with which I will outline those clouds that seem too grey.

Aside from that, your perceived tone makes it seem like you want to force malcontent and harsh critique onto other forum members. This is something I think would hurt more than help. If most or all community members were the same way, I believe it would go a long way to discouraging the future development of PC games.

In closing, I think that whether we like it or not, the situation before us leaves us with two choices. Accept what is and work with developers and publishers to make the most of it, or don't accept anything and cause the death of the industry all together.

 

Reply #17 Top

I don't get this "golden era" mentality.

Games have always been bug ridden messes.  I believe in 1983 or so the entire market crashed due to poor quality and an oversaturated market.  Almost any game with any sort of graphics required me to fiddle with settings and struggle through computer crashes.  I remember one CRPG, the name is escaping me, where part way through the game, you became completely invulnerable to attack.  Patches were nearly an impossibility - I was connected to a slow land-line that dropped connection more often than not before downloads of any size could be completed.  That game became unplayable.  If it came out today, and the company didn't just abandon it, they'd have a patch within the first or second day.

The quality of games waxes and wanes.  There was no golden age and there is no such thing as a bug-free complicated game.  There are too many lines of code, too many variations in systems, and not enough time in the world to QA them.

Reply #18 Top

For all the people making excuses for piss poor releases, I've had a number of games that worked just fine, out of the box even, no patches necessary or registration required to take a broken product and turn it into an actual game. Is there a chance that there are hardware problems, sure but not always. Elemental, FFXIV and a host of others are not suffering from some unfair disadvantage of working with PC hardware though, the problems are/were much deeper than that. PC gamers are relatively forgiving for things like driver conflicts and hardware issues and even on our own, help pubs figure out which combos are having the problems.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Nesrie, reply 18
For all the people making excuses for piss poor releases, I've had a number of games that worked just fine, out of the box even, no patches necessary or registration required to take a broken product and turn it into an actual game. Is there a chance that there are hardware problems, sure but not always. Elemental, FFXIV and a host of others are not suffering from some unfair disadvantage of working with PC hardware though, the problems are/were much deeper than that. PC gamers are relatively forgiving for things like driver conflicts and hardware issues and even on our own, help pubs figure out which combos are having the problems.
End of Nesrie's quote

Would those games happen to have been sequels and /or using an engine that has been tried, tested, and proven to be stable?

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 19



Quoting Nesrie,
reply 18
For all the people making excuses for piss poor releases, I've had a number of games that worked just fine, out of the box even, no patches necessary or registration required to take a broken product and turn it into an actual game. Is there a chance that there are hardware problems, sure but not always. Elemental, FFXIV and a host of others are not suffering from some unfair disadvantage of working with PC hardware though, the problems are/were much deeper than that. PC gamers are relatively forgiving for things like driver conflicts and hardware issues and even on our own, help pubs figure out which combos are having the problems.



Would those games happen to have been sequels and /or using an engine that has been tried, tested, and proven to be stable?
End of Gwenio1's quote

 

No, not all of them are or were.

Reply #21 Top

This wasn't an issue of PCs being difficult to develop for. This was an issue of a company releasing an early beta as a complete product so they did not miss a release window. Unfortunately the precedent has been set, so a lot of companies are doing it and will continue to do it because they think it is acceptable to deliver unfinished products devoid of proper testing as long as the other guys are doing it as well.

Reply #22 Top

I am willing to accept some level of hardware issues as long as the company patches them.  I do think compatibility would be a nightmare for any development company.  The fact some companies are better at addressing this is why several companies have earned my repeat business and others will not get any more of my money (no matter what the title is).

As far as Elemental, Frogboy has been pretty open with the fact that Elemental was released in poor shape.  This is my first Stardock purchase and so far it seems that they are willing to correct the problem.  On top of that, their offer of the free expansions seems more than fair to those that purchased the game prior to the specified dates.

Reply #23 Top

Quoting KingHobbit, reply 22
I am willing to accept some level of hardware issues as long as the company patches them.  I do think compatibility would be a nightmare for any development company.  The fact some companies are better at addressing this is why several companies have earned my repeat business and others will not get any more of my money (no matter what the title is).

As far as Elemental, Frogboy has been pretty open with the fact that Elemental was released in poor shape.  This is my first Stardock purchase and so far it seems that they are willing to correct the problem.  On top of that, their offer of the free expansions seems more than fair to those that purchased the game prior to the specified dates.
End of KingHobbit's quote

I don't recall anyone claiming that Stardock is not trying to make good. That still doesn't excuse poor releases, not just from Stardock but from other companies. I am also tired of people trying to claim that some of these issues is all the hardware fault when it is not. Is it harder, sure, but  you know what, MS, SNY and NIN are not running around sucking out their profits for the privlege of publishing on a closed system either. PC's can also have a pretty low cost of entry. I mean there are some very nice games out there on PC that didn't cost millions to look good AND they play well aka are fun to play.

Reply #24 Top

blaiming the hardware anymore is a bit of a load. back in the day when you had no standards for graphics and were writing everything in assembly to squeeze out every last bit of juice, when you had no plug and play and no api's, and were tweaking your config.sys and autoexec.bat just to play a game, that was a hardware situation. sure some graphics cards occassionally fail to implement every aspect of direct x properly, creating some problems, but this is rather rare, and on the whole, this is for new, state of the art features, and you are bringing it on yourself when you try to use them(leave an option to shut them off so you can easily check them), if you write for directx, it will work on compliant graphics cards.

the complexities of the engine are implementing level of detail systems, putting in a memory manager, and a resource mananger, handling multithreading safely, sorting directx calls to optimize performance, properly releasing resources, sending network messages and synchronizing, etc, its logic, and getting the components you wrote to work together, or work with some 3rd party(and well established and tested) api. in short, writing code.

its not trying to make it work for a million different hardware combinations. yeah there will be anomolies, but it isn't the norm. you don't write for an ati and an nvidia, cause generally speaking all you do is make it work for directx, or an amd and an intel, or kingston and pny, you just make it work for windows. if the problems really and truely were hardware(at the very least, someone elses software) they wouldn't be patching the game, they'd be telling you to go omplain to someone else. people would be having the almost exact same problems with the various games if it were really hardware configurations. this game is using shader 2.0, and this game is using shader 2.0, if it works for one and not the other, how likely is it really hardware at that point?

when civilization 4 came out, one of the big problems was a massive, massive memory buildup that caused an eventual crash, the cause, a very silly rookie mistake, each and every unit was duplicating resources that should have been shared. it was solved by a russian hacker long before the programmers even acknowledged a problem(which is the only reason we actually know what the cause was). they calimed it was hardware, then said huge maps were unsupported(like it didn't hapeen on medium and large). sure it was hardware, a lack of infinite memory.

most of what gets called 'configuration bugs' these days, seems to be doing something that you never should have done in the first place, but that one provider allowed, let you get away with, but is not part of the standard. the biggest problems in programming(just take a look at the civ4 sdk) is a complete lack of documentation and useful commenting, along with doing stupid things like nesting if statements 20 deep with massive else statement branching, leaving people too afraid to touch anything, even when its painfully obvious its redundant and messy, or broken, for fear they might be missing something in that mess.

you dealing with hardware that generally has a very specific purpose and very finite set of requirements to meet to qualify as compliant. you have a fixed set of tests to gauge that compliance. your graphics card doesn't talk to your keyboard, or your mouse to your monitor, they talk to windows. and only in a set number of ways.

my point, there is a very finite amount of blame that you can put on a lack of Q&A machine configurations, atleast nine times out of ten, its a conveinent scape goat that everyone is far to eager to believe. cause things are just "sooo" complex.

 

Btw, had a trash-80, those were the good old days.

 

Reply #25 Top

I would like to mention Kings Bounty Legend and Kings Bounty Armoured Princess. Stable and fun for me all the way!!! The only bug I know of was some morale bug when you used droids (they dont have morale), and then switched back to normal units.