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The new magical order

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The new magical order

from JoeUser Forums

As mentioned last week on November 1st I’ll be resuming my traditional position as Executive Producer and lead designer (the position I held on our previous games) so that someone who can dedicate their full attention to Elemental can succeed me. 

My successor, Kael (Derek Paxton), is well known in the Civilization community for Fall from Heaven, a rich, fantasy-based mod.  If anyone is qualified to take over the reigns of Elemental, it’s him.

In addition, we recently brought on something we haven’t previously done, an Associate Producer. This is something we should have done on Elemental but we were still structured like we were when our games were just a half dozen people projects.  Toby Sarnelle was recently added to the Elemental project to work with Kael.  They shall bring order to the chaos. :)

I want to emphasize that I’m not going anywhere. I’ll still be part of the project and posting plenty but my journals will increasingly be about the part of the game I’ll be involved in most – the computer AI.   For v1.1, I’ve started handing the producing efforts to Toby in preparation for Kael’s arrival on November 1.

So how does game design differ from being a producer?  Let me give you a few examples from v1.1’s work.

The Design:

v1.1 technology tree has a cavalry sub-tree now.  The design calls for the new technologies to give new abilities to your existing cavalry units such as “Charge” and “Evade” (to evade arrows).

Producing:

v1.1 engine doesn’t support adding abilities to existing units. Alternative proposal: Those techs provide new types of mounts: (e.g. War Horse) that do have these abilities.

The Compromise

The Executive Producer thus has to make the call as to whether that is an acceptable workaround or if they are willing to increase the budget and due date for the release in order to extend the engine to support that.

Those are the kinds of calls that have to be made all the time in game development.  The challenge is making the right judgment call on when to implement the work around and when to spend the time/money to update the engine.  On a new game, this can be perilous (as we have already seen) because you make the wrong call on something and you can cripple the entire game experience.  This is why sequels tend to be better because you already have a feeling for what game mechanics will work and which ones won’t.

It’s also why the Designer and the Producer are generally not the same person. Checks and balances.  One of my funnest experiences (on development) was with Demigod.  On that project, I was the Executive Producer, Mike Marr (GPG) was the designer and Bartosz Kijanka (GPG) was the producer.  One of the reasons why Demigod is such a good game was because of how effectively the 3 of us were able to work together.

The importance of the triumvirate

These days, it seems like everyone wants to be a “game designer”. People ask me what does it take to be a game designer? The answer is you had better have a good handle on how games are actually made.  Anyone can sit down and whip up a 300 page design document outlining their ultimate sci-fi vs. fantasy real time strategy/RPG/FPS game. What makes someone a good designer is how well they can design something that can actually be made profitably: Time, Scope, Budget.  So for starters, make sure you know how to program. Have you ever made your own game? Have you ever made a substantial mod? These are important basic skills to get started.  Hence, people who want to be game designers, IMO, should get a degree in computer science or some other technical field – not “game design”.

Similarly, if you want to be a Game Producer, the key skills here are project management. Can you make sure your artists, developers, balancers, etc. are all moving according to schedule? It’s like juggling. :)

In my case, I’m a good but not great game designer. I’m a good but not great Game Producer. My “special” skill is that I’m good (but not great) across the breadth of game creation.  This is an important skill if you want to start your own game studio but can be detrimental once it becomes successful because you need to begin stepping back to replace “good” with “great” at the earliest opportunity and that can be hard to do.

Anyway…

I don’t really have a particular point I’m trying to make in this rambling journal other than to give those of you who are interested in the game industry a glimpse of what things are like.

127,499 views 64 replies
Reply #51 from Elemental Forums Top

Great communication!

I really  like the posts where we get to here how things are going behind the scences. Unfortunately I have not been excited to load Elemental and play anymore do to all issues etc.. yes I finsihed the campaign. I am sure I will load up a game in a few months when the dust settles. Please keep up the hard works and make this game FUN.

My only negative comment would be to please work on the interface and game mechanics so it feels more integral to your playing experience and not chopped up modules.

Your text about being a game designer is interesting but not everyone wants this, they just want good quality fun games with support. I realize that stradegy games are very complex in there goal of continual replay with delivering a different game experience each time. what I would like to see is game companies take in ideas from the game community and pay them for the ideas if they merit such, yes this is judgemental but developing a new game is just that a risk.

In the meantime I have gone over to GOG.com and purchased a version of Masters of Magic and been revisting an old friend. This gem of a game can be had for 6 bucks and works on any modern machine. Yes the graphics are old but the game is still fun.

Thanks again for the open communication.:)

Reply #52 from Elemental Forums Top

(now I suspect some of you totally get why I get into trouble on forums and in the media with what I write online ).
End of quote

 

Because sometimes you are joking and there are too many people without a sense of humor...

 

The first DLC for Oblivion, the game that kind of what made DLC what it is today, sold that shitty horse armor and it was quite the uproar. Oh, memories...can't believe I bought that shit...
End of quote

Well, i bought all Dragon Age DLCs... BIOWARE. I thought these are the "good guys". :(   

Star Control: Origins
Reply #53 from Elemental Forums Top

double post...sry

Reply #54 from Elemental Forums Top

I hope this doesn't kill his career. cause the main story, engine, the whole backbone of elemental is a mess which in turn limit what he can do. it takes more than modding to change this. more like a complete makeover.

and why is it all way tech this tech that? cause everything you get from the teach is like a brick, weapons, armor, packs.... ect,. why not just unlock a tech to allow us to make those with the resource we can pool in? this is a hybrid/fantasy turn base not a full civi game....

 

Reply #55 from Elemental Forums Top

The Main story isn't a mess, I can't speak for the engine as I don't have a clue how those that works.  The backstory is fine, it just needs to be fleshed out and be made a more important part of the game.  The book and the campaign give it a good starting point, it just needs to come out in the game more.

Reply #56 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 55
The Main story isn't a mess, I can't speak for the engine as I don't have a clue how those that works.  The backstory is fine, it just needs to be fleshed out and be made a more important part of the game.  The book and the campaign give it a good starting point, it just needs to come out in the game more.
End of Lord's quote

Yes, after reading the book I realized how much backstory there is. Too bad nothing of it ended up in the game, except for the sad little campaign/tutorial.

Reply #57 from Elemental Forums Top

It really depends on the company and really even then it depends on the project. In my experience, the Designer sets up the broad strokes, the Producer is the one who makes it happen.

A good Producer is a pre-requisite for a good game. And a good Producer is heavily involved in the design.

At Stardock, we have the term "Lead Designer" which sets out the broad strokes of what the game is. The lead designer sketches out the basic mechanics and general rule sets. The Producer is the one who makes it really come to light.

At other companies, the Designer is all powerful and the Producer merely carries out their vision. Since I've never considered myself a real "game designer" the position of Lead Designer (which has been my role) has had a lot less power than it might have at another studio and instead the team and the Producer flesh out the concept. My "power" comes from the role of Executive Producer since that's the part that sets budget and manages the product (as opposed to project).

Anyway, the thing to take away from this is that every studio has different ways of doing things. Since we're historically an engineering-driven company, we have a tendency to put more power into the hands of those actually doing the coding.

The downside to our system, which is something we're addressing, is that it leads to designs that are often soulless or generic.

On a personal level, my long-term objective is to be neither the designer nor the producer on any of our games. Rather, I would be the executive producer (the guy making the overall requirements -- i.e. we're making a PC, turn-based, strategy game set in a fantasy world and you have 36 mnoths and $3 million to do it and I'll work with you on design and write the AI.
End of quote

I could use $3 million for making a game :D. Now I need some good programmers to help me out, anyone interested :P?

Heheh this was a very interesting article, thanks for the insight :D.

Reply #58 from Elemental Forums Top

Good post.  As a game designer myself, I can honestly say you don't need a background in computer science.  You also don't need a background in art.  That said, they can be really good starting points because they help you with the single most important thing for a designer to have in the games industry: communication skills.

You need to be able to communicate your ideas and you need to be able to understand the ideas of others. This is why a background in art or engineering can be a boon: you can speak to others in their language.  As Brad alludes to, this industry is highly collaborative.  So to be a good game designer you must listen to your engineers and artists when they tell you things.  If an engineer says something is out of scope, it's out of scope.

I would argue the second most important part is to design within your budget.  Know your time table (governed externally from a publisher or internally by a desired ship window) and design for it.  To truly understand your budget, you need to talk with the other discipline leads and work systems and mechanics (see "the most important thing") and identify what you can and can't do.  Part of this is also figuring out where quality supersedes quantity.  Personally, I approach design with a quality-first approach, but (unfortunately) that's not always the best option, so I deal with that when I have to.

Game design is one of those skills you can't really learn through anything other than experience (and sometimes even that isn't enough).  I agree with Brad whole-heartedly that you should avoid getting a "Game Design" degree.  It's not that it's a waste, but there are better (more quantifiable) skills that will help you get that dream job.

Reply #59 from Elemental Forums Top

I thought this thread was about the new magic system in 1.1.

Reply #60 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Thormodr, reply 47
Personally, I'd prefer to wait for the engine to be modified to accommodate the Calvary upgrades.

I think it's the wisest course of action, even if the patch is delayed for awhile.

 
End of Thormodr's quote

 

Yep ... I feel like you should approach redesigning the engine in several parts ... each adding a new set of functionality.

 

You could compare this to Light, Fire, Shadow, and Ice ... although harder because you have to do everything from the ground up.

Right now we are in early Light ... :)

maybe 1.1 can be full Light or Early Fire ;)

Reply #61 from Elemental Forums Top

I want my Sov to be half Vampire, half Robot and half Dinosaur.  Oh, and I want him to ride a talking pony that grants wishes.  Some one create that mod.  Shit, I forgot to take my meds today...

Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

All the best of luck to you Kael! I have loved your Fall From Heaven dearly, now I hope you can bring some of that magic to Elemental! Just use your skills and ideas alongside Frogboys and this game should be really really great in the coming months! Fall From Heaven only needed a little bit more immersion, not in terms of story (cuz I read that Civiliopedia for dayyyyss) but in terms of feeling attached to your characters. But Civilization never did a good job of that.. ever. So I suppose its not your fault. Elemental's idea and original design strategy of making a strategy game that immerses you like an RPG was amazing. And I feel it has a lot of potential, but I've just not been impressed and havent played in like a month. So please, Kael, bring some magic back to this.  :grin:  All the luck in the world!!

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 26



Quoting Tasunke,
reply 23
as far as I can tell, Warhorses could still give extra HP and armor ... (after the engine is made better) ... in lieu of no longer being needed to "unlock" the new abilities.

But yea, my vote is for getting it (the way you want it) the first time.


We'll be selling the armor for horses as a separate $9.95 purchase so we can't really combine the horse AND the armor.
End of Frogboy's quote

 

Joke...

 

I hope.