Unit size idea so heroes survive longer and focus on more heroic opponents

from Elemental Forums

I have been thinking about how to make heroes less vulnerable to squads of troops.

Firstly, as already mentioned elsewhere, don't add the defence/attack of each squad member.

 

But how about also limiting the number of squad members that can fight an opponent, based on the opponent's size?

So for example:

- Hero v squad of 8 men fight (shouldn't matter who is attacking, to keep it simple).

    - Only 2 or 3 of the squad can fight the hero, not all 8.

- Ogre v squad of 8.

    - Only 3, 4 or 5 of the squad can fight the ogre, not all 8.

- Dragon v squad of 8.
    - All 8 can fight the dragon.

- Squad of 8 v squad of 8.
    - All 8 can fight all of the other 8.

Effect:

- Heroes survive longer against squads in melee.

- To avoid overpowering heroes in melee against squads, they should be able to kill only one person in each melee attack, no matter how much damage they do.

- It would take a hero at least 8 engagements to kill all 8 squad members. So players will avoid tying up their heroes fighting squads, but instead focus them on other heroes or big units like ogres. So heroes will end up fighting more worthy foes.

- If only 2 or 3 members of a squad can attack a hero, and their attack/defence aren't added together, then they may not be much use against the hero. So squads will want to avoid heroes while there are other squads to attack.

 

 

A similar mechanic would be needed for ranged combat. So big creatures or squads are easier to shoot than a lone hero. 
This has been suggested elsewhere, but the following may not have been: each individual arrow/bolt can only kill one squad member.

Effect:

- Heroes survive longer against squads of archers.

- Does not overpower heroes in ranged combat, as a hero shooting into a squad can only kill one person with each shot, no matter how much damage they do.
- Heroes would take at least 8 shots to kill a squad of 8 archers. So players will avoid tying up their heroes shooting squads, but instead focus them on other heroes or big units like ogres.

- If most of the shots from an archer will miss the hero, but most will hit against another squad, then archers are less likely to focus on heroes.

Adjustments required:

- It may be necessary to increase the ranged accuracy of heroes, so they can still shoot other heroes effectively.

 

I apologise if these have already been suggested.

elemental
7,250 views 9 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top

I like this idea!

 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

A simpler idea to implement would be allowing us to stack and unstack units.  Add a hero to 2 scouts and you add up all there defence and attack like normal.  The squad would have better att def and health then 3 scouts.   Stack several heroes together to get a really beefed up and expensive stack. 

 

This would also come in hand early in the game where you could stack units you have already built in to squads as you unlock the research.  More then 1 city could be used to parallel build squads.  You could unstack an experienced squad and mix them with new units to increase the new units hps.  This would require tracking each unit individually but would allow us a lot more flexibility.  It would also give protection to hero units as the whole stack would have to be wiped out to kill them.  

 

 

 

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

The attacks of squads don't simply add up when attacking. As I understand it, each (living) member of the group makes an attack using their own attack rating, and the damage is the sum of damage achieved by the members. I think defense is handled differently.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Ok, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

 

The idea is to limit the number of figures in a unit that can receive or deliver damage, so that heroes end up fighting more worthy foes than a unit of ordinary men.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

This is fairly similar to the way this is handled in the warhammer fantasy battles. A unit can only attack those whose tile touches theirs. The problem with this idea is the same in that game, a squad of 12 guys would actually attempt to surround the one units and would not simply stay in formation while attacking one lone unit. This would simply add a gamism to artifically give a bonus to a single unit when fighting a group.

Now, I agree that something should be done to help out the champions deal with the dominance of a group v. the one unit. Yet, I generally support the idea of having champions attached to a support unit. This would allow a much broader strategy as new champions could be created to give support bonuses or to simply strength the unit with its own combat abilities. While I know the normal fantasy trend is to make the heroes near invincible in the face of the enemy, this does not translate well into the game setting where one champion should not completely tip the balance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

It's very simple, champions should also be "leaders," you should be able to attach one hero to a 4man/8man squad like a "squad leader." 8men attacking one guy should be able to splat the one guy, but the one guy shoulld not be forced to fight by himself when he's part of an army. adding one hero per squad/fireteam solves the problem. 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

All these ideas are great. I favor Cpl_Rk's though, not only from a gameplay standpoint but from a gamelore view. Seemsl ike Champs should have personal guards.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Seems like Champs should have personal guards.
End of quote

I don't know if I like the idea of "Personal guards" for champions. This could be an interesting idea for the sov as it would make sense in the lore, but I think that champions should be thought of as captains/lieutenants which oversee various aspects of the faction. Considering all the changes moving into 1.1, I think that the role of a champion should be expanded.

Currently, A champion has three basic roles. Firstly, a champion is an upgradable combat unit, capable of being tailored to the needs of a faction. Secondly, A champion is a city support unit, with abilities which modify the cities in which it is stations. And Lastly, a champion is a spell caster, capable of being imbued with magical abilities and becoming a supporting spell caster. The general problem with these roles is simply that they do not scale very well. In the first two roles, champions find themselves becoming obsoleted or in the last, becoming far OP as all spell casters. So the question becomes, how does one balance these roles with the progression of the game and expand them to offer a more robust set of roles? Considering the major changes to spell casting coming in 1.1, I think that only the first two need to be expanded to offer better scaling.

As far as the champion's role as a combat unit, I think the first step is to make champions attachable to a combat unit. This makes perfect sense and inherently deals with the scale problem of dealing with 12 man units. However, this is simply the tip of the iceberg, as this would simply make champions nothing more than glorified units and would not confer a real bonus for using a champion over a high level well equipped unit. To this end, Champions should be expanded to gain some kind of skill points along with normal xp. With these points, player could buy new skills to expand the usefulness of their unit. These skills would be seperated between new combat abilities to enhance the unit as a competent warrior and new support abilities to incorporate the idea of the unit as a savvy general.  In this way, champions would become more than mere combat units, but would become the captains and lieutenants of the sov's army.

With respect to city/faction support champions, these units can be split into two categories, moderately useful and increasingly meaningless. Consider a champion which gives a +10% farm bonus v. a champion which gives a +1 arcane knowledge bonus. With the farm champion, the bonus is moderately useful for the entire length of the champions life, as he can be moved about to maximize his bonus. Yet, the +1 arcane knowledge champion is useful until you build even one arcane research building, at which time this unit's bonus become marginalized, and even more so, since it is not effected by the multiplier structures of a city. Now, the first change here is obviously to make the +1 bonus people give their bonus as a city bonus, so that they can be effected by the bonus structures of a city. The second is similar to that proposed for combat units. If champions gains some kind of city skill points based on how each turn they stay in a city, these units would be able to gain civic skills which enhance their city/factional support abilities. So if a +1 research champion stays in a city and works the libraries, they can eventual have a +2 or maybe even a +10%. And lastly, I think it would be interesting to allow these support units to act as a specialist unit so that if I have a city with 2 champions, then the city can utilize two more specialist run buildings which are run by the champions themselves. This would then give a player both a reason to promote these types of champions, as well as enhance the bread v guns choices with respect to champions.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Simplest way I can think of to make heroes last longer is to have some type(s) of Raise Dead spells.  Maybe one immediate on the battle field and one for later use from the strategy map.

Maybe also some sort of Amulet of Resurrection that lets the bearer rise from the dead after the fight, only if his side wins.

MOM & AoW:SM had these, so if EWoM wants to be their successor.....