Improved racial variety

Custom race creation/recruitment

I love the game, but one aspect that bothers me is that despite the visual and cultural differences between the various races of Fallen and humans, they perform the exact same on the battlefield. Some Kingdom/Empire wide traits can influence their combat abilities, but in general they are no different from each other.

Summary of idea: Allow for the creation of new species with slightly different standard statistics. These species can be chosen as the base for your kingdom/empire, and can be recruited into your empire to help with your armies.

With the summary done, here's a possible Creation process.

Similarly to how you can create your own faction, allow an option to create your own species. The baseline appearance is chosen (based on the currently available species, and potentially in the future custom made appearances) and some modifications can be made (allowing and disallowing face/eye/hair/clothing options for the randomisation, etc). Next the player chooses their allegiance. The species has preferences for side, but they won't be locked out of use for the other allegiance, as explained below.

After the appearance and allegiance, the mechanical customisation is open. Essentially it has the same options as the level up screen (strength, dexterity, movement, combat speed, etc), with all the options sitting at the current in-game standard as a baseline. The player can then apply a number of points (probably 3, just to allow for genuine differentiation) that affect all soldiers of that species.

For example: I create a new species, giving them a fearsome appearance with beady eyes and powerful builds. These creatures shall be ferocious warriors called the SnugglyWugglies. The SnugglyWugglies are renown for their brutal abilities in combat and the crushing nature of their bear-hugs, and so when I reach the mechanical modification part, I place all three level-up-points into Strength, giving them a brutal strength of 16! If I decided to make them quicker, I would place all three points in combat speed, reaching probably up a fraction more than one full point. This could make them into brutally quick warriors, or offset the penalty of heavy armour. Or were I to decide they were incredibly tough, I could add the points into constitution, giving them a higher baseline health which would be modified by experience. Or a combination of all this, one into strength, one into constitution, and one into combat speed to offset heavier armour/weapons.

And now, use In-Game.

When creating a new faction, you can choose which species makes up their members in the beginning. It has to correspond with the allegiance of your faction. As you play they are treated no different to the way the game treats your current populace. When creating soldiers, the points you spent on improving them comes into play.

However, along with this idea is a new tree in the diplomacy research. For Kingdoms this would be the Integration tree, while for Empires this would be the Slavery tree. Originally you are not able to recruit soldiers from outside your own species, but after researching the first option in these trees you are presented with a dialogue window. In that window you have a choice, and may choose an extra species to integrate into your nation. From this window you ARE able to choose species from the other allegiance, but when recruiting them into your army they have a 1.5x modifier for gold cost, to represent that while they are welcome (or 'welcome', for the Empire) they are not common by any means.

Of course it isn't a "BLAM, you're in" deal. In post apocalyptic fantasy world, trust is a hard thing to come by. When a new species is within your empire, they can be recruited into your army (when designing soldiers, you would be able to choose their species), but their gold has a modifier, likely 1.5x or so. This represents that while the species is within your empire/kingdom, they are the vast minority and not as easy to integrate into your forces. This is in addition to the 1.5x for cross-faction species, so a Kingdom trying to recruit a Trog into its millitary would have to pay 2x the normal gold cost!

However, as you continue researching Integration/Slavery there would be twin benefits. Firstly you would be able to choose more species to integrate/enslave (up to a particular maximum) into your Kingdom/Empire. Secondly the cost modifier would be lowered, until eventually it drops to a 1x (except for creatures from the opposing faction, of course, who would probably have a minimum of 1.2x) to represent the species is either completely integrated into your multicultural metropolis-like kingdom, or you have so many of them in your slave pens it's just as easy to use them as to use your own kind!

 

Comments/criticism welcome!

13,707 views 16 replies
Reply #1 Top

Quite a few people were begging for this during Beta, but it didn't happen. There were some very long debates about Factions vs Species, etc.

 

I also want this, or at least better differences in vanilla Elemental.

 

I'm currently in the early stages of designing a mod that includes much greater gameplay differences between species and factions. The XML is powerful enough to let us do this, so I expect that many mods will include more diverse factions. A 'species creator' would be cool, but that will probably have to wait for an expansion, at best.

Reply #2 Top

I'm down with the human, or human-ish, faction leaders as they are--but if there were more recruitable monsters, i.e. zombies and orcs, that would go a long way toward factional differentiation, particularly if different sovereigns had different general affinities for what monsters they could recruit.  Mix different monsters types up with standard human recruits and that could go a long toward some interesting fights once the "epic battles" get worked in.

:rofl:  

Now, when it comes to diplomacy, I'm thinking this should be a war of good versus evil, but neither the human nor the fallen factions have any loyalty toward one another, it doesn't seem.  Human factions make treaties with fallen ones as easily as other human ones, and vice versa.  Similarly, factions on the "same" side end up fighting one another as easily as they do their "enemy."

>_>  

So I would like to seen an "influence" victory condition, where say more than 80% of the map falls under the influence of one side or the other.  That way, team victories are possible, and one is benefitted from helping their natural allies and harmed by teaming up with the other side.

B)  

Otherwise it was mentioned in another post to ditch random city names , and have a number of stock city names for each faction.  Tarth would have like elvish sounding names, the golden guy would have dwarf like names, that sort of thing.  I mean Tarth resembles wood elves, Procipinee is like high elves, what's-his-face is like dwarves, Capitar is human all the way, and Relias is human but could do halfing in a pinch.  Not that you couldn't choose random city if you wanted to, and of course still choose your own name, but it would just default to a certain set with a kind of sound that could give each faction a unique flavor.  Anyway it's late and I'm just thinking aloud at this point.

 

Reply #3 Top

Human vs fallen do have a modifier of +/- one on diplomecy.  But that seems so minor and underplayed.

 

About the races and species?  I wish SD would allow most of the game to be customized when user set up a new world.

Oh, if you do make 'differet species' how will this affect marriage and dynasties?  A 'sluggo' proposes to a 'snugglie' and one says, we wont get offspring...

Reply #4 Top

random names for settlements:  This is another area that woulf be so easy for SD to make a customize screen.  user could then go in and set a list of names for each faction, or leave it random.  Sd uis making so many changes (I'm happy they are)  while they are in there, why not ALSO create a user tool to allow us to customize that feature, function?

Reply #5 Top

Quoting ElanaAhova, reply 3
Human vs fallen do have a modifier of +/- one on diplomecy.  But that seems so minor and underplayed.

 

About the races and species?  I wish SD would allow most of the game to be customized when user set up a new world.

Oh, if you do make 'differet species' how will this affect marriage and dynasties?  A 'sluggo' proposes to a 'snugglie' and one says, we wont get offspring...
End of ElanaAhova's quote

Currently offspring will be the same race as the parent of the same gender, as proven by what happens when you have a dragon sovreign.

Reply #6 Top

This aspect has been my biggest disappointment with Elemental. I'd happily play with the weak AI and poor tactical battles just for the RPG aspects if there were specific species in play. Without this sort of racial flavour the game feels so much less than it could/should be.

Compounding this issue is the lack of moddability in this area as well. Reverse-engineering some of the XML code, it looks like there were plans to have racial diversity at some point. But this appears to have ended up in the 'too hard' basket. Maybe one day...

Within the Elemental community there seems to also be a very broad definition of what races are in a fantasy game. Some see it as like human races where skin colour is the only delineation where others see it more like the traditional races (Orcs, Elves, Dwarves etc). I'm glad you specified 'species'.

As has been mentioned, this has been highlighted as a problem since the betas but don't hold your breath waiting for an official response - I can't ever remember this issue being addressed one way or another officially by anyone from Stardock. In one of the beta posts someone had mentioned that Frogboy had stated that the game would essentially not be species against species but would instead be human against human. I can't find these posts now but after reading that I've tried to keep my head in regarding this issue - but it just screams for real racial diversity!!!

Please Stardock, if you aren't going to put this in at least give the modders the API and ability to implement this properly. The game really really needs it.

Reply #7 Top

I think Fallen Peasants are a different race, they seem to have extra HP, more attack, less defence, and slower attack speed than other units.  Why?  No idea. 

I would like to at least be able to change skin and hair color on my people.  Can't I make a nation of black people?  I see some champions are black, but cant make our own nation?  So wrong, I can have a nation of white, sister banging humans(yes, sleeping with sisters is a game function), but no blacks or gays, Stardock, it's 2010, and in this game I actually have to spend points just to give women equality?  Is this game set in ancient, mystical Alabama? 

The above post was meant as humor, please do not read too much into it.

Reply #8 Top

The problem with vastly differing race/factions is balancing them would be very hard. When starcraft came out with 3 different races it was quite a feat, and many have tried (not so successfully) to top that. Balancing 10 vastly different races is just virtually impossible. That's why they only have 2 sides with some minor differences (which are easier to balance) between the factions on each side in the main game. Even then, I'm sure you've seen the comments regarding how one side is stronger than the other. Imagine what it would be like with many different sides.

 

Having said that, SD did give us the tools to make very different races, we can change a lot of things with the existing mod tools. Basically they placed the power into the hand of modders so that they can focus on more core issues, like stability, or how the game handles combat, etc... The only real problem with this is that we also need access to AI modding, so as to make the AI play the custom races to any effect. Otherwise only the players would be able to use the races, and the AI have to play "core" factions, which cuts out half the fun. Supposedly we will be getting python scripting and more some time later on, but until then, I don't think you can expect any serious race modding.

 

Edit: Coincidentally, you'd also have to write many different AIs to play many different races. And given the state of the current AI, I don't want to imagine what it would be like with many very different races.

Reply #9 Top

They can at least give us the ability to create different looking factions.  And then give us more meaningful abilities to choose from when creating a nation, wouldn't be that difficult.  Just some different body and head templates, be able to chose those and then choose hair and skin color, and simple race creator right there.  Then, the factor bonuses could be better implemented and that could provide differences.  I don't see it as a huge hurdle.

Reply #10 Top

So wait, all you want is a cosmetic difference? I thought the whole point of having them be different would be for them to actually play different as well...

 

... I mean, what's the point of cosmetic differences when you spend most of the game on the cloth map? @_@

Reply #11 Top

I don't spend any amount of time on the cloth map, I don't know what you mean by that.  And cosmetic issues would please me greatly, and having meaningful and useful choices would provide enough diversity.  I would also like to have more than 2 tech trees, but thats something else too.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Kalin, reply 8
The problem with vastly differing race/factions is balancing them would be very hard. When starcraft came out with 3 different races it was quite a feat, and many have tried (not so successfully) to top that. Balancing 10 vastly different races is just virtually impossible. That's why they only have 2 sides with some minor differences (which are easier to balance) between the factions on each side in the main game. Even then, I'm sure you've seen the comments regarding how one side is stronger than the other. Imagine what it would be like with many different sides...
End of Kalin's quote

Gal Civ managed this very nicely. As does the FFH mod. As does Age of Wonders. As does Dominions. Even in Civ 5 play as England and see how differently you play with longbowmen with the extra range. Yes, coding vastly different aspects would be difficult but if the tactical battles where better fleshed out with different types of damage/resistance, the races could be given bonuses within the system.

The main constraint to having unique species/races is the 3D asset cost. Hand this over to the modding community but give them the support, API and engine enhancements to make this work.

Quoting Kalin, reply 8
...Having said that, SD did give us the tools to make very different races, we can change a lot of things with the existing mod tools. Basically they placed the power into the hand of modders so that they can focus on more core issues, like stability, or how the game handles combat, etc...
End of Kalin's quote

I disagree. The tools we have at the moment for races are very superficial. I was planning on getting involved in making unique races but there is way too much wasted energy attempting this yet.

Quoting Kalin, reply 8
The only real problem with this is that we also need access to AI modding, so as to make the AI play the custom races to any effect. Otherwise only the players would be able to use the races, and the AI have to play "core" factions, which cuts out half the fun. Supposedly we will be getting python scripting and more some time later on, but until then, I don't think you can expect any serious race modding.
End of Kalin's quote

Yes, without the API very little can be done to diversify the races. Stardock needs to realise that much of this can come through the community - but they need to give support in this area. I'm sure they will in time, but in the meantime it is just too hard.

Reply #13 Top

I would also like to have the ability to change how each AI plays, like GalCiv2 had, you could make them good, evil, neutral, aggressive, passive, etc. 

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Kalin, reply 8
The problem with vastly differing race/factions is balancing them would be very hard. When starcraft came out with 3 different races it was quite a feat, and many have tried (not so successfully) to top that. Balancing 10 vastly different races is just virtually impossible. That's why they only have 2 sides with some minor differences (which are easier to balance) between the factions on each side in the main game. Even then, I'm sure you've seen the comments regarding how one side is stronger than the other. Imagine what it would be like with many different sides.

Having said that, SD did give us the tools to make very different races, we can change a lot of things with the existing mod tools. Basically they placed the power into the hand of modders so that they can focus on more core issues, like stability, or how the game handles combat, etc... The only real problem with this is that we also need access to AI modding, so as to make the AI play the custom races to any effect. Otherwise only the players would be able to use the races, and the AI have to play "core" factions, which cuts out half the fun. Supposedly we will be getting python scripting and more some time later on, but until then, I don't think you can expect any serious race modding.

Edit: Coincidentally, you'd also have to write many different AIs to play many different races. And given the state of the current AI, I don't want to imagine what it would be like with many very different races.
End of Kalin's quote

I have no problem with the different factions keeping their allegiance (Kingdom/Empire) as the distinguishing factor about them rather than species/race determining this, it works quite well as a gameplay mechanic. All I'm really talking about is adding baseline statistics to the standard soldiers of the different species to differentiate them, and then allowing research to open up recruitment of other species with different baseline statistics. Hopefully the change would be minor enough that the AI wouldn't need to be altered in any time consuming manner, but reasonable enough that it would change the feel of the game for the better.

Quoting ElanaAhova, reply 3
Oh, if you do make 'differet species' how will this affect marriage and dynasties?  A 'sluggo' proposes to a 'snugglie' and one says, we wont get offspring...
End of ElanaAhova's quote

I hadn't really considered that when posting the idea. Though I must say the species idea above was only intended to represent the common peasant (and from there soldier) of the faction, and would have no impact on the Sovereign him/herself. Similarly, it likely would not have an impact upon Champions, so the problem -should- be avoided.

Reply #15 Top

Lots of different species aren't MANDATORY for a fantasy-style world. Take a look at the Song of Fire and Ice series, which has often been cited by the Devs as inspiration. It is mostly just humans, and it is fantastic.

 

Lots of what you guys are asking for was debating in depth in Beta, with Stardock fully involved in the debate. They went the way they went, and that is fine, and right now they are focused on getting the base game into a better state. My hope is that after 1.1 we will get a bit more love for the modding community, and I think we will. Stardock has been very responsive so far, but they do have lots on their plate and there is only so much they can do at once. I wish they could improve the base game, improve modding, etc. all at once, but that isn't realistic.

 

Once 1.1 comes out, I would like them to do more for those of us that do want to mod in more species and make other big changes. We shall see.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Goontrooper, reply 15
...Lots of what you guys are asking for was debating in depth in Beta, with Stardock fully involved in the debate....
End of Goontrooper's quote

True, there was a lot of comment during beta. But I don't remember anyone from Stardock ever involving themselves one way or another in the debate. They still don't.

My take on this is that they saw these changes as way way too hard/costly to implement so ignored it - hoping it would go away.