Mods/Updates Breaking The Game: Needs To Be Fixed

from Elemental Forums

The way the game breaks core features based on third-party mods when updates are released is really baffling to me.

One of Elemental's biggest features is the novel way in which it handles modding.  The game has literally been built from the ground up to make modding fun and easy, not only for creating them, but also in the way they are deployed to the public.  Quite frankly, I have never seen a game make modding so easy and seamless before.  What you are going to have, in just a few short months, are literally hundreds of quality mods for people to use.  This is a good thing.

What's not good is when we are told we must delete all of our mods before applying a new update to the game.  With the promised update frequency we have been given by Frogboy, this sounds like an utter nightmare.  This is going to be a serious problem in the future with people having to scour their files for hours trying to rid their computer of every file that "supposedly" causes a conflict with a new build.  You will also see the forums crawling with people whining that feature X is broken in the new update, when, in reality, it is some obscure mod causing the issue.  This will be a pain in the neck for Stardock to deal with.

What's baffling to me is the seemingly paradoxical way mods are being treated at this point.  To install most mods, I am required to dump all of the mod files exclusively into my MOD folder.  I'm not changing any core game-play files, I'm not overwriting any XML.  I'm putting it into an EXCLUSIVE folder that has literally no direct impact on any other file.  Sounds great right?  Wrong.

If you're going to separate your mods from your core files, and then not truly keep them separate when push comes to shove, something is seriously wrong here.

This is programming 101.  I am a professional web developer, I do this stuff for a living.  There are literally hundreds of web applications that I maintain for my company, from Ecommerce stores to system APIs and other web frameworks.  In 2010, you can download mods to your hearts desire that become activated based on the core file system requirements.  The mods will break if there is a conflict with core files.  The core files do not break.  This is because the system only activates files that do not override core functions.

This is what I propose to remedy this issue: Require mods to come with a build version.  As soon as the game launches, it checks and activates all mods that match the current build version.  If they do not, they do not become activated.  It's really quite simple: do not allow game features to break because someone's mod conflicts with newer core functions.  I don't even care if there is a notification that a mod has become deactived, just break the mod until it gets updated.  In fact, don't even show the downloadable mods from the workshop if the version does not match the current build.  This will give the modders time to go in and update their mod for the latest version and deploy them effectively.

Elemental just screams, "MOD ME!".  This is a great thing, but there needs to be a better way to handle them when updates are released.

 

elemental
9,170 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I've been asking for some type of in game mod manager for a while now. The game seriously needs it. The nightmare of mod management now is crazy.

 

It needs some system like: Each mod go into a separate folder within the Mod directory, and comes with a config file. The config file has basic stuff like version compatibility and a basic description on what that mod does. The game then scans all the config files and shows the available mods on a new mod screen, where we can select which mod to turn on or off. I don't really like having to restart to load a mod, but I can bare it.

 

 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top
Quoting Kalin, reply 1

It needs some system like: Each mod go into a separate folder within the Mod directory, and comes with a config file. The config file has basic stuff like version compatibility and a basic description on what that mod does. The game then scans all the config files and shows the available mods on a new mod screen, where we can select which mod to turn on or off. I don't really like having to restart to load a mod, but I can bare it.
 

End of Kalin's quote

 

That's the intended design in the future, from what I've read.

 

However, a mod manage as you and the OP suggested would be much better. At the very least, something similar to what the Sims 3 has - it has a pre-loader where you can see all the stuff you've downloaded and individually click each one on and off, among many other handy mod features.

Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

Nearly every moddable games requires mods to be redone or at least recompiled when there is a new game version.  True even of World of Warcraft.  Devs spending time on ths spend less time on stuff people care about.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting greggbert, reply 3
Nearly every moddable games requires mods to be redone or at least recompiled when there is a new game version.  True even of World of Warcraft.  Devs spending time on ths spend less time on stuff people care about.
End of greggbert's quote

I have no problem with that, but that is NOT what is going on in Elemental.  Elemental is not requiring mods to be redone in new game versions, they are simply being allowed and are breaking game features in the process.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sagittary, reply 2

However, a mod manage as you and the OP suggested would be much better. At the very least, something similar to what the Sims 3 has - it has a pre-loader where you can see all the stuff you've downloaded and individually click each one on and off, among many other handy mod features.
End of sagittary's quote

 

YES.

In a game designed to be modded almost as much as played - this would seem like a sure fire feature to have around.

 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting greggbert, reply 3
Nearly every moddable games requires mods to be redone or at least recompiled when there is a new game version.  True even of World of Warcraft.  Devs spending time on ths spend less time on stuff people care about.
End of greggbert's quote

 

What the OP is asking for is that the game perform version checking, more or less. Right now, the game loads up mods without any checks. What the OP wants to happen is something like:

 

I have Game 1.08 and Mod 1.07. On load, Game 1.08 pokes the mod folders and sees mods. Is the mod the same version number I am? If yes, load it. If no, add an error message to the message log and ask the player "Do you wish to load Mod 1.07? It is an older version. If you wish to do so, click yes, but note that we can not be responsible for compatibility issues."

 

He's not saying that mods or the game shouldn't break each other (that'd be impossible), just that the core engine should be more conservative about what it does and create more separation between mod and non-mod material.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I think World of Warcraft's addon manager and the way addons were stored was a good system.  I have Sims 3, but I don't recall how it's mod management worked... I don't feel like loading it up either cause then my daughter will be over here asking to play.

I think for some mods, it's not a necessity.  If it's a tile mod what's the likelihood that something is going to change in an update that makes it incompatible.  However, the fact that it could happen should dictate that it is a requirement.  So while I initially was thinking make it optional, then maybe it should be a requirement for mod authors to update the version number.  Granted, some of them may not bother testing the compatibility of their mod and will just change the number.  However I think many people take pride in their work and would probably test.  I could be wrong.

Either way, I agree.  +1

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting greggbert, reply 3
Nearly every moddable games requires mods to be redone or at least recompiled when there is a new game version.  True even of World of Warcraft.  Devs spending time on ths spend less time on stuff people care about.
End of greggbert's quote

I'm actually running quite a few mods on WoW that I haven't updated in years. By default when a new patch comes along it will turn off your old mods but there's a check box you can click which turns them back on again. The majority of mods will work fine without being updated unless there's an enormous change.

In general though your right that it's not unreasonable to expect mods to break with a new patch. Sounds like the bigger problem with elemental is the great difficulty in tracking down all your mod files and deleting them. And of course the great frequency with which it's getting patched.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

If mods could be stored in their own subfolder, it would make things a lot easier for everyone.  The mod author and the player.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting FadedC, reply 8

Quoting greggbert, reply 3Nearly every moddable games requires mods to be redone or at least recompiled when there is a new game version.  True even of World of Warcraft.  Devs spending time on ths spend less time on stuff people care about.


I'm actually running quite a few mods on WoW that I haven't updated in years. By default when a new patch comes along it will turn off your old mods but there's a check box you can click which turns them back on again. The majority of mods will work fine without being updated unless there's an enormous change.

In general though your right that it's not unreasonable to expect mods to break with a new patch. Sounds like the bigger problem with elemental is the great difficulty in tracking down all your mod files and deleting them. And of course the great frequency with which it's getting patched.
End of FadedC's quote

Precisely.

Also, how are people using mods they got from the in-game workshop going to know that it is one of their mods that is breaking a game feature if they don't frequent the forums often?  This game is different from the Elder Scrolls and other games that require you to hunt down and download mods strictly in your web browser.

It's common knowledge that those who visit a game forum are a small minority of people who purchased a game.  Somebody's game could be bugged for months and never know that it was one of their mods causing it.

Elemental is unique in that it doesn't require you to search forums or other modding websites to find mods (at least this will be the case soon).  There will be nobody there to tell them that Mod X conflicts with Feature Y in version Z of Elemental.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Hmm, do you have any information regarding mods, which are causing some of the bugs reported? Didn't have any problems yet, but may be helpful to take precautions ;)

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Xiwi, reply 11
Hmm, do you have any information regarding mods, which are causing some of the bugs reported? Didn't have any problems yet, but may be helpful to take precautions
End of Xiwi's quote

[eMOD] Bugfix Mod 2.2b for Elemental 1.07 (<-- needs to be removed)

https://forums.elementalgame.com/395013

[eMOD] Bugfix Mod 3.0b for Elemental 1.08 (<-- new version)
https://forums.elementalgame.com/396824

For those that used previous versions of the bugfix mod:

Delete all HF107_ files in your /Mods/ folder before starting a new game with the 1.08 patch.

Delete all HF106_ files in your /Mods/ folder before starting a new game with the 1.08 patch.

Stardock should include a statement in their announcement and/or changelog telling people to check their mods.  It might not be obvious to people.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Xiwi, reply 11
Hmm, do you have any information regarding mods, which are causing some of the bugs reported? Didn't have any problems yet, but may be helpful to take precautions
End of Xiwi's quote

Hah!  Thanks for proving my point.

As far as I know, only Icecrown's spell effect mod is causing problems right now.  Anyone using it cannot inflict any damage with their spells.  It must be deleted.

But, who knows!?  There could be more...

 

Edit: Oops, yep, apparently there's another causing problems.  ^^^

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Hmm sure, saw another thread that old mods about spells won't work anymore. This is caused by an outdated way of calculating damage in spells, Now it has a min and max damage tags and shards work differently, AFAIK..

Ok, gone off lazy mode and looked into lighting strike code for a quick example of changes

 

 

Old Code:

Code: xml
  3. &lt;GameModifier InternalName="LightningStrikeDamageModifier"&gt;
  4. &lt;ModType&gt;Unit&lt;/ModType&gt;
  5. &lt;Attribute&gt;DefendableDamage&lt;/Attribute&gt;
  6. &lt;Calculate InternalName="AttackerIntelligence" ValueOwner="CastingUnit"&gt;
  7. &lt;Expression&gt;&lt;![CDATA[[UnitStat_Intelligence]]]&gt;&lt;/Expression&gt;
  8. &lt;/Calculate&gt;
  9. &lt;Calculate InternalName="Value" ValueOwner="CastingUnit"&gt;
  10. &lt;Expression&gt;&lt;![CDATA[-1 * [AttackerIntelligence]]]&gt;&lt;/Expression&gt;
  11. &lt;/Calculate&gt;
  12. &lt;Calculate InternalName="Value"&gt;
  13. &lt;Expression&gt;&lt;![CDATA[[Value] * [UnitStat_NumAirShards]]]&gt;&lt;/Expression&gt;
  14. &lt;/Calculate&gt;
  15. &lt;/GameModifier&gt;

 

New code:

Code: xml
  3. &lt;GameModifier InternalName="LightningStrikeDamageModifier"&gt;
  4. &lt;ModType&gt;Unit&lt;/ModType&gt;
  5. &lt;Attribute&gt;DefendableDamage&lt;/Attribute&gt;
  6. &lt;Calculate InternalName="ExtraDamageFromShards"&gt;
  7. &lt;Expression&gt;&lt;![CDATA[[UnitStat_NumAirShards] * -2]]&gt;&lt;/Expression&gt;
  8. &lt;/Calculate&gt;
  9. &lt;Calculate InternalName="ExtraDamageFromIntelligence"&gt;
  10. &lt;Expression&gt;&lt;![CDATA[[UnitStat_Intelligence]/-5]]&gt;&lt;/Expression&gt;
  11. &lt;/Calculate&gt;
  12. &lt;Calculate InternalName="TotalBonusDamage"&gt;
  13. &lt;Expression&gt;&lt;![CDATA[[ExtraDamageFromShards] + [ExtraDamageFromIntelligence]]]&gt;&lt;/Expression&gt;
  14. &lt;/Calculate&gt;
  15. &lt;Calculate InternalName="MinValue"&gt;
  16. &lt;Expression&gt;&lt;![CDATA[[TotalBonusDamage] + -2]]&gt;&lt;/Expression&gt;
  17. &lt;/Calculate&gt;
  18. &lt;Calculate InternalName="MaxValue"&gt;
  19. &lt;Expression&gt;&lt;![CDATA[[TotalBonusDamage] + -6]]&gt;&lt;/Expression&gt;
  20. &lt;/Calculate&gt;
  21. &lt;/GameModifier&gt;

 

I also saw reports of undead rising (Race mod) causing problems. If the cause is found I would appreciate replying here so everyone making those type of mods know how to update them.

Indeed Stardock should bear in mind moddability more. However I think real support is planned for a later stage of development and right now they are focusing in "fixing" the game, which isn't that bad after all. I would only wish they dedicated at least one person to this, so users wouldn't be the ones to realize how to fix these things. It could even help realizing , which of the bugs reported is caused by mods, so it should be worth the resources spent ;)

 

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

I wouldn't bother with anything more than tinkering with mods at this point, wait until at least 1.1 if I where you. As they are currently modifying major game systems I would expect some mods not to work as intended with this build.