Combat

Dominions 3 - a possible inspiration

First of all, I don't really understand why Elemental tries to simplify combat mechanics (one number for attack chance and damage). Is it to make the AI better understand the mechanics?

Generally, pen and paper games must simplify, because it's not fun to calculate hundred numbers for each sword swing. However, computers are good in number crunching, so computer games may benefit from more detailed models of gameplay mechanics - like combat.

Let's look at Dominions 3 combat system a bit - I don't know if many of you know it, but I wholeheartedly recommend it.

Weapons in this game have multiple statistics - damage, chance to hit (attack), defense bonus and reach. It's not so linear (biggest sword kills all), but presents interesting choice for the players. When there is a difference between weapon reaches (pike vs dagger, for example), the shorter weapon user must first successfully defend to shorten the distance. If he is unsuccessful, he suffers damage and is "repelled" back, and has to try again. This way, a formation of pikemen with lousy stats can hold at bay a pack of wolves - just because their long weapons offer them safety. Against a squad of mediocre, but armored swordsmen, they fall easily.

Another important point is that weapons affect defense. Obviously, a slender, renaissance sword with elaborate guard is better for parrying than a heavy, but unbalanced club. Should safety be preferred to ability to inflict damage? Here, units take different roles - one with better defense holds the enemy at bay, while other attacks at range, or attempts flanking.

Lastly, the difference between dodging or parrying the blow (defence), and absorbing the blow makes the system more varied and interesting. A heavy club may never hit an agile opponent, but if he tires down and his high defense stat plummets, first hit will will send him across the floor. A heavy armor may be impenetrable to normal blows, but a single hit with a magic wand may turn its user to stone.

Dominions 3 also has a great synergy of spells and conventional weapons. For example, Yomon has weak, but cheap archers that are nearly useless against armored troops, their arrows bouncing off harmlessly. A clever player will prioritize research of the "Fire weapons" spell, and because armor is only half as effective against flaming weapons , these weak archers suddenly become quite deadly. Undead player can cast "unnatural aging" global spell, and enjoy watching the enemy heroes wither and die of old age in a few turns, while being unaffected himself (long-lived Rylegh are another matter, though). Abysian troops from the underworld have infravision, so the global spell Eternal Darkness gives them considerable advantage.

And so on, the examples are numerous.

I am not saying Dominions 3 is better game, but some of its parts definitely work splendindly, especially the said combat system. There is a lot of detail hidden - the player may just read the result of a battle, watch it casually, or examine the log for detailed explanation of what happened ("oh, my giant got paralysed in the first round, and my footmen were decimated by arrows. Maybe next time, I will forge that protective ring and hire troops with shields").

An ambigious system where there is no clear "better or worse", but forces player to make interesting choices usually contributes to an interesting and immersive gameplay. Creating a competetive AI for such a game is usually quite impossible, though.

 

 

 

 

3,939 views 7 replies
Reply #1 Top

i've never played this game (and personally i find myself feeling slightly "umm.... alright" when people make these kind of posts, usually for this reason. however, i do agree the game definately needs more stats. you can't represent a war of magic with only 4 stats.

total war games and many other games that are considered far more casual than elemental still have vastly more complex (and more numerous) stat systems than elemental. even games that people play far more often like WoW. the difference between the two is that the total war games (and WoW) are much less abstracted because they have better stat systems that produce more intuitive results.

WoW is a more complicated system, but you don't need to understand it to get decent results, just apply a little common sense. elemental is much less complicated, but you must understand it perfectly to get good results because it's so unintuitive. who when applying common sense would ever guess that a short sword would double you movement rate, that first strike would be so important, or that a fireball would do the same total damage to one guy standing in a square as to 10?

to my mind there is nothing complex or ridiculous about the idea of allowing, withing the stat system, the ability to give a fire elemental fire resistance. the ability to stop a being made of elemental fire being burnt.

and to my mind, the idea of having a decent, intuitive stat sytem that tells me everything i need to know about a unit at a glance, is also far more straighforward than having to look up a multitude of special abilities that everyone is constantly clamouring for, probably in some separate screen that's hidden away from me. special rules and abilities are just crutches that illustrate the limitations of your system.

Reply #2 Top

This was IMHO the most egregious deisgn element left out of Elemental. It is on the Big List of stuff though so hopefully they will get around to it soon.

 

This is what stopped me from playing after the first few days. I was trying to stay engaged but the combat was simply too badly designed to keep my interest.

Reply #3 Top

Sethai - I mentioned Dominions 3 because it accomplishes something unique, IMO. It's not just a complexity of the stats, it's the synergy of the seemingly unrelated game elements - somethings what Elemental lacks the most, currently.

Plus, Dominions3 battles are truly epic, with hundreds of units and spectacular spells. The game achieves it by taking away the tactical micro - you influence only the initial setup, plus you can script command queues to units and spellcasters. That removes a lot of exploit potential, since both sides ultimately depend on the same limited AI during the actual battle, but speeds the game a lot ( you can examine only the battles you are interested in), removes the problems with turn sequence (everyone plays simultaneously), and allows you to concentrate on the subjectively interesting events.

Reply #4 Top

This topic has been done to death already. No point in making a new topic about right before they come out with a new patch to see if it fixed. Learn how to use the search option before making a copy post. And you cant really voice your opinion on the game if you havent play it yet or just stopped since new updates come out and things are changed/fix. you want your opinion/rant to matter stick with the game or go somewhere else.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting vampyrebunny, reply 4
This topic has been done to death already. No point in making a new topic about right before they come out with a new patch to see if it fixed. Learn how to use the search option before making a copy post. And you cant really voice your opinion on the game if you havent play it yet or just stopped since new updates come out and things are changed/fix. you want your opinion/rant to matter stick with the game or go somewhere else.
End of vampyrebunny's quote

Oh, unwanted hostile fanboism.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Kamamura_CZ, reply 5


Oh, unwanted hostile fanboism.
End of Kamamura_CZ's quote

 

I'm by far a fanboi, I've recently and frequently said I'll not play the game until it's fixed.. but I also thought "geeze, another lazy person who just wanted to create a post to feed their own ego instead of taking two minutes to add their thoughts to the 100 other threads about this issue.. "

So, show some consideration for those that don't want to wade through piles of threads about the same bloody thing to find something new instead of taking the easy way out (again) and calling them fanbois, yeah?

 

PS I FULLY agree with your post.. i'm one of those that keep bringing up Dom3 as an example of how SOME things should have been done (in my humble opinion)

Reply #7 Top

Okay, the point about not creating separate thread is valid. I have reposted my contribution to the main combat discussion thread and now I am looking for a way to delete this redundant thread. If a mod can do it, please do so.