I think because a lot of folks playing EWoM and discussing it here are hoping that CIV 5 will having everything that they were hoping for in EWoM...

That's not to say it will, but damn, that video is just chock full of 'nice touches' that, had they been present in EWoM, would have made the game feel a lot more finished.

Not to derail this thread even further... if this thread really had a meaningful train of discussion to begin with, but...  Has anyone played Reign: Conflict of Nations?  I keep vacilating over getting that game...

True, though with the support the SD has and will put into this game, I am sure they will make some radical changes that will significantly improve Elemental.  Firaxis, will not change Civ, and even mods like FFHA2 are still stuck with the Civ engine.

While I admit to having no special knowledge of such things... is there something particularly troubling about being 'stuck with the civ engine'?

Is Elemental not stuck with its engine or will that be replaced 'down the road'?  I kinda fail to see how that is an argument... but maybe I'm missing something.

As for the rest, and from what I can see, Civ 5 already looks like a great game without having significant improvement be all that necessary.  I'm sure things will definitely need to be fixed and tweaked, but I prefer a mostly done product requiring less support on day 1 than a boxed idea that should be great with time for 50 bucks.

For what it's worth, I agree that SD will stand behind Elemental and make it a fun game.  But for some folks, that ship has sailed, at least for now.

Moiiska is just a civ hater, no real need to engage him in a discussion about that game since he simply doesn't like it.

Nothing wrong with not liking it, it's not for everyone's taste, but there's just little point in watching him beat a dead horse over and over.

The Civ mod SDK comes with the C++ source of the core game, so you can mod it how you wish. It's true you're still stuck with a TBS on a tile map, but I don't think anyone wants to turn it into an FPS.I also doubt SD can change Elemental more than FFH2 changed Civ and still call it the same game. At that point you're probably looking at Elemental 2.

This is actually my pet peeve... I haven't seen anything suggesting this would happen, but I'm hoping Stardock also releases the core game C++ source, so the mods can be as extensive and game changing as the Civ 4 mods. The mods are really what made Civ 4 so popular, not the core game. Having a Python API, extended as and when requests for features arrive, just doesn't allow for that scale of modding. I'm not interested in mods that add more graphics, or more fedex quests, or create somebody's pet fantasy world that plays exactly the same. I want to see people adding or drastically changing gameplay mechanics, such as creating a dynasty system Total War style, or the concept of religion as in FFH2, or item creation like in AoW:SM, or a social system or a supply chain economic system, etc, etc. Since all such mods would require significant changes to teach the AI to handle them, we'd need more than a few Python bindings.

How about AoW:SM, HOMM3, Dominions 3, Civ 4, FFH2, Total War, GalCiv 2, Europa 1400, Majesty. All of which have had some influence on Elemental and, on their own, felt more complete and consistent to me than Elemental does. I disagree with those who say Elemental is new and innovative. To me it still feels like the latest in the line of "Civ with Fantasy Stuff" games.

As for the points you mentioned:

"Real" tactical battles: No, there isn't

Quests: fedex

Role-playing: not fleshed out at all

Marriage and dynasties: almost inconsequential, aside from getting free heroes. Not fleshed out like TW.

Heroes and villains: Not sure what you mean by villains but the heroes are pretty lackluster, due the lack of special abilities and interesting magic

Fantasy stories: background lore doesn't affect the gameplay, aside from the dead world being the explanation for the lack of base terrain

LOL , and you are here wasting your time...

To all the CIV fans here - good for you. I have tremendously enjoyed the original Civ back in the day on my then 286, and skipped the rest up until Civ IV, which I got this year with all the addons. I have only played one full game of Civ IV (base game) on a small world, and halfway through it started to be really tedious for me. The end game really dragged, so I just researched all the tech needed for space victory to be done with it as soon as possible.

I don't know, but for me, Civ has lost its charm. It was nice when I was a small kid to build up cities, wonders, and conquer the map. But today, I just want something more faithful to the real history, with less of the simplifications Civ introduces. Enter Europa Universalis and Total War.

I picked Elemental for different reason - because I wanted a turn-based fantasy game with a character (and by that, I don't mean the sovereigns). The game brings back very fond memories of other fantasy strategy games I played (I am a good fantasy junkie, and Elemental oozes with good fantasy setting) - HOMM 2 & 3, AoW, and strangely enough, the original Dungeon Keeper, which is still the best game ever made in my eyes.

The game may be far from perfect, but I am capable of having fun with it in its current form. And with Stardock's promise to improve it, I am happy to put my money on their title instead of Firaxis'.

At the least the devs understood they screwed big and try to save the game unlike some other companies (Lucas Arts comes to mind very quickly) which have the attitude "What!!! Don't you know we are great??? How dare you not to like our game??? Give us your 60$ and get lost!!! We are here to grab your money, not to be liked by you!"

eek.. double post.  Sorry.

Bah.. I am not going to argue with you e-hero's.  If Civ is your favorite game, go post on civ fanatics. If you like Elemental, stay here.  The end.

How about i will play Civ V because sounds nice and i will wait to play Elemental when it becomes more fun ?

I don't really see a problem with enjoying both games...

Only problem for me at the current state is that Elemental lacks fun, and Civ seems at least well ... polished and like Civs.

I just think i like both kind of games, just waiting for Elemental to be improved.

How much must I like it in order to be allowed to stay?

You are the one deciding what I like or don't.  I just thought I would help you out. There is too much negativity on the site already.  I wish the mods/admin would ban hammer people left and right, or create one particular part of the forum where people can go and bitch non-stop and have bitch-fests to see who the biggest bitch is and how much they hate <insert here> about Elemental. The Civ forums wouldn't let people disparage Civ as much as Elemental is on here.

I am deciding what you like?  Well, then, I declare that you like Pink Monster trucks!  hahaha sissy!

Seriously, though, why do you get to decide how much negativity is too much and how much is deserved and/or constructive?  Mods banning people left and right would turn a 'forum' into a social club, where like-mindedness is required.

How do you know the Mods aren't banning (or removing posting privileges) already?  I tend to think that if they weren't, there would be a WHOLE lot more negativity on here, but that's just my 2cents.

Have you been to the 2k forums?  I think you underestimating what can go on there.

First of all, let's compare apples to apples here.  Total War and Majesty are not really 4X games.  The former is a tactical combat/formation simulator, and the latter is a medieval fantasy simulator.  Sure, you can say that there is a turn-based mode in TW, but you can't expand with settlers and you can't research tech.  It's simply an unfair comparison to say Elemental's tactical sucks compared to TW when TW's main focus was it's tactical combat, unlike Elemental that has divided up it's feature to many more areas.

And how much more "real" are the tactical battles in HOMM3, MoM, Dominions 3, Civ 4, FFH2 and GalCiv 2? First of all there are no tactical battles in Civ 4, FFH2 and GC2 so right of the bat Elemental has a leg up on them.  Secondly, the tactical battles HOMM3, MoM and Dominions are just as simplistic as Elemental.  They all comprise of units lining up on either side of the battle field and running into each other like Electronic Football

I'll give you AoW:SM since that game had better tactical combat than Elemental, at least for now.

Again, name another 4X strategy game that has quests PERIOD.  Even if they are fedex-type quests they are at least twice as elaborate as any other so-called quests in other 4X games.  Frogboy has promised to flesh this out in the future with real dungeons.

This is getting tiring.  Again, name another 4X game with as much Role-playing mechanics as Elemental.  Sure, in MoM you could "name" your sovereign and give him some spell books, and in HOMM3 you can equip your heroes with items, but Elemental does all of that and more.

Total War is not a 4X game, like I said above.  If you're going to compare apples to oranges, then it's easy to pick apart Elemental and compare another game that does a single aspect better.  Yeah, Morrowind is a better RPG than Elemental, obviously.  Yes, marriage and children are done better in the Sims 3 than Elemental.  But show me another 4X GAME that has marriage and dynasties.

Besides, I think dynasties in Elemental are better TW.  In Total War, do you actually get to customize your wife and children?  Do you get to send them on quests?  In TW, dynasties are just text on the screen that give you a warm fuzzy feeling.

Villains = NPC adventurer factions who have teamed up with monsters that go around trashing your improvements and settlements.  You occassionally get pop-ups telling you about an NPC that is wreaking havoc on your settlements that need to be dealt with.

Heroes do have special abilities, they are stated on their character cards.  Hero characters are far more deep than other 4X games because of the deep customization options for them, such as stat/level growth, equipment selection, editable names, marryable (is that a word?), etc.  

Heroes and Villains can feel much more heroic and villainous because of the emotional attachment you can gain by their customization.  It's far more heroic to me to see my son grow up, and take on and succeed at a difficult quest or battle.  The depth here dwarfs other 4X games.

As for magic, is Elemental's magic system really any less deep than HoMM3?  The quantity of spells may not be there yet, but the system itself is very close to MoM's system other than global mana.  The amount of spells, I'm sure, will increase over time with updates and mods.

I'm not talking about the background lore, I'm talking about the story the game tells you as you play.  I've already seen some excellent posts detailing their game like a diary.  I've never seen people write stories about their game of HoMM3, MoM, or AoW.  I think this is because people are becoming much more emotionally attached to their characters than what they had in other 4X games.

And you failed to rebut my modding claim, so I assume you agree with that.

Well I don't think it really matters who does something first or whether a particular game feature is deeper or less deep then a completely different game. But since you brought it up....

Quests have been in Warlords, Age of Wonders 2 and HoMM off the top of my head. They generally had way more variety then fedex quests. It's been awhile, but didnt' AoW have gods that offered you quests, which not only had rewards but also effected your reputation with the various gods? I thought that system in particular was interesting.

Off the top of my head I'd say roleplaying and hero customization elements are much more elaborate in HoMM and a little more in AoW compared to elemental. In Homm you could have 2 heroes with the same stats and same special ability and gear, and they could still be radically different due to the skill trees that had an enormous effect on gameplay. This is not true at all in elemental. But again, HoMM is a different game and as the name suggests there is a strong focus on heroes and roleplay and not so much on empire. So I wouldn't remotely expect elemental to achieve that level of depth and customization.

The magic system for HoMM is also way deeper, spells have an extremely varied effect on gameplay and fighting a mage who specializes in one school of magic is extremely different then fighting one of another, which is something everyone complains is not true in elemental. I wouldn't necesarily call HoMM magic deep, but it's a well realized and functioning system and I think many be happy if elemental managed even the HoMM level of magic depth.

And yes I've seen plenty of excellent story like diaries for many types of games beyond elemental. Your probably just paying more attention to the ones for elemental.

FadedC... It has been said that Elementals Quest feature has not been fully realized yet.  There is much more potential than what has been realized at this point.  I trust the same is also true for Roleplaying and Spellcasting.  The game was crafted with these elements in mind.  From the get-go, It has been known that the game would not reach full potential at launch.  Look for more depth in these areas once the game gets stabilized.  From what I have read, it was always the intention to deepen the game after launch.  There is only so much that can be done in that initial development cycle.

Well it's hard to know exactly what is going to happen in the future with elemental. There are a lot of features that are incomplete and don't work well together, and I doubt they will be able to make them all great. More likely they will have to pick and choose a bit and narrow the focus of the game more. But at this point I don't think even the elemental developers completely know what the future of the game will hold.

I'm sure some things will deepend after launch though, I mean there is so much room for improvement, they would almost have to. I disagree that you can chalk the lack of depth up to only so much being done in the initial development cycle though. They jumped the gunand released the game way too early. There are some problems with any new game, but elemental goes way beyond that.

Look dufus, you're the one who brought the Civ comparison into this in the first place, though in a completely misguided manner, suggesting you haven't played much civ.

I don't really think civ is that great myself, but your complaints about it (not all in this thread) were nonsensical as they relate to Elemental.

Right now Elemental isn't complete but I will not brag a game up because of promises (lots were already made and not kept) and because there might be Mods.

I haven't followed the development of Civ5 like I did E:WOM but I am pretty sure it will be more polished right out of the box than Elemental was.

Until they come through with their "promises" they mean nothing and are nothing. When Elemental finally gets polished I will sing its praises like I did during the BETA(was an Alpha). Until then I will tell people wait and see what happens.