To begin with I agree with everything you have said about MOM - but that doesn't mean I don't still love MOM (I played a game using dos box the other day) - people love it despite its flaws. Because Master of Magic was just plain good fun.  It was simple and had some really remarkable elements that i have never seen again in a 4X magical game. though I admit to not having played Age of Wonders 2 - i might pick it up if i can find a digital copy to buy or something...

Things I love about MOM - - You could manually enchant items and equip them to heroes.  Mana crystals were a great way to keep track of just how much spell power you had at any given time.  You could add mana crystals to a spell to make it more powerful.  Magic really worked - each type of magic felt different and allowed its own strategies -  anything from books of air and an illusionary force to a small group of champions all clad in artifacts of power you made your self. 

Most of all, you were an all powerful wizard who was able to see what was going on all over your realm to the point that you could take part in any battle and from your sheer power - cleverness - tactics etc you could personally take a losing situation and turn it into a winning one.  You could cast world wide enchantments or curse enemy cities into oblivion.  It had many races and each had some cool magical units - playing a different race was like playing a slightly different game.

Lastly I think that a lot of people overestimate the amount of people who really want an AI to be able to kick their Butt.

I'm not a Chess Master, nor do i pretend to be a master strategist of any type.  I don't play games to prove anything - least of all the fact that I'm cleverer or better than a Games AI.  I play games for the fun.  Knowing i'm going to be beaten 5 times in every 6 doesn't make me want to sit down and play a game. (though I accept that may be an allure for some)  Knowing I always have to use the same strategy to win doesn't make me want to sit down and play the same game over and over and over.

If i play a computer game I consider it almost a forgone conclusion that i'm going to win.  When I play Dragon Age - I play for the story and I win.  it wasn't easy at times - some battles I had to think about how to win - but i won.  When I play Half Life or resident evil 5 or Doom -  I'm going to win.  I may have to reload a few times and think my way through some stuff - but if i can't get past a certain problem then the game wins. 

What does it mean when the game wins?  In all but strategy games - it means I wasted my money because if i can't get past a certain point then i can't finish the story, the game and most of all i'm not having any fun.   I'd put Computer games such as -  poker - chess - Civilization - 4x world builders etc into the strategy game basket.  It's OK to lose to a strategy game - but you don't want to have to make a habit of it and you don't want to have to always build - Technology X - which allows building Y which allows Unit Z rinse and repeat.

Master of Magic was great - because it let you play the same game in so many different ways and still win.  Most of all it was fun and fun is relaxing - i have enough stress in my life - my game time is relaxation time.  I'm not saying i don't want Elemental's AI improved.  I'm saying the multiple ways of winning are a good thing - I don't want to have to micro manaage as many cities and Units as I posably can every single turn to win a game - a computer AI is good at that, therefore a good computer AI will beat most human players most of the time.  Magic in Elemental needs to be updated so there are huge differences in a fire mage or an earth mage etc and both lend them selves to totally different strategies. 

Despite all its many flaws MOM had all this and was a great way to relax and kill and afternoon - then you could do it again the next day with a completely different character and/or a different race and a different strategy and play the game in a totally different way.  As you say - any kind of for thought and a little cleverness meant you won - which is not always a BAD thing in a single player game...

@Borsuk -  I hope i didn't offend with any lack of punctuation or (god help me a pair of brackets) a lack of rhyme or reason to my paragraphs.  As long as I got my point across I consider the post written well enough.  But then, each to their own... I, personally, would rather take the time to answer a posters actual post than point out why i shouldn't be bothered.  but again, That,s just me...

Great post Suunman! Particularly about why people find MoM to be fun. MoM is not a great game because it had stellar AI; it is simply great because it is fun to play enough that you can overlook the other shallow parts while playing the game. And technically, its AI wasn't bad when it came out in 1993! and low-res GFX was fair for its time period too. If it had stellar AI and maybe sprinkle of hi-res GFX, then it'd be THE GAME of ALL TIME.

One thing perhaps MoM may be "advantaged unfairly" is the lack of multiplayer concept. It was single player only and the design made the various races and units unbalance. In some way, this actually helped the game to be fun and variable, maybe this is the reason why modern games don't feel so fun when you play different factions. There are certain units in MoM that I don't enjoy play, like Klackens, but you know what? the rest 80% of the races are great fun and diverse that require different build paths. It's precisely this lack of a uniformity in Tech X enables Unit Y path that breaks up the monotomy of a TBS game.

Let's face it, games are for fun, not to punish yourself with mindless chores or drudgery. Nobody wants a cakewalk, but the game design itself should not make it that only 1 or 2 upgrades paths would let players have advantage and beat the AI. That just makes the next game so much less appealing. MoM does not have the greatest AI, and it cheats incredibly with the "Impossible" difficulty, but this somewhat makes up for the need to overcome AI's ineptness. However, the sheer variety of the ways you can win in MoM is why people are willing to overlook this AI problem, it's just not the same game when you try something different. I can fire up the next game, use Death Magic, and do something completely different than the previous game when I used Chaos Magic, and still win the game (but need to survive the AI's resource bonus in early to mid games).

Also it is NOT fair to beat up MoM on its AI ineptness, because that comparison simply beats down MoM (while ignoring everything else great about it), and it does not say anything positive about Elemental. I'm sure AI in Elemental will improve, but it's nothing to write home about right now. More importantly, from everyone I've read here in the forum, people's main complaint on Elemental are 2 fold. First types involve game implementation, which include bugs, interface and unit stat balance issues. This stuff more or less happens to all games, MoM had its share but got better by 1.31.  Elemental may have more share of this issues due to its Beta and launch timing. Then you have other complains about game mechanics. This is where the original fundamental design was lacking, and the most prominently mentioned aspect has been magic system's impact to this game. Magic is truly where it shines in terms of fundamental game design in MoM. It's hard to quantify, it's a sum of its various magic books, the opposition of Life vs. Death, or Nature vs Chaos vs Sorcery, and also the various the offensive and defensive counters. All these add up to make the the USE of magic fun in MoM.

The Elemental game is a War on Magic. Many people, including me, looked forward to this game, not necessarily because it's MoM2 (well, honestly I was at first), but more of a good fantasy magic 4x game that reminded people of MoM and AOE:SM and other classics. Instead, Elemental made Magic somewhat secondary to the goal of the game, and it also made it "just like another tech tree". In Elemental, it seems that more advanced magic simply meant higher costs and higher kill stats. This takes the fun out of the Magic system. You can have various "potency" or levels of Magic spells, but it's not a tech tree and cannot be treated that way.

To the OP: i suggest you visit this thread https://forums.elementalgame.com/396119 and watch the video. Soren Johnson(AI programmer for CIV series) explains there (among other things) that there are various types of players.

Some of them play for the challenge - the competitive type. For them, a game that does not put up a difficult fight is meaningless. They see no point in playing if they can just rush the AI and win everytime.

Then there is the player who doesn't care about winning as much as he does about playing. The 'sim-city' type of player. He does not care if the AI is strong, because he just focuses on building his little kingdom, and derives pleasure from watching it grow and prosper. The AI is just a danger element for him he has to deal with every once in a while, like the disasters in simcity.

If you don't understand the love for MoM, then you probably are the first type of player.

Memory is a fickle beast. It and time gloss over things, the Good Ole Days syndrome. Not all the Love for MoM comes from here but quite a lot does I would think.

People say they want MoM, but what many really want is that feeling they got while playing it, the two are linked, but are not the same.

Worst reliable thing in court Eye witness accounts, most likely to sway a jury, the same, though CSI shows have helped bring forensics to the front, the jurist much like a gamer builds an expectation that can never be met.

I liked MoM and played way too many hours, it was flawed, but I had a great time. I do not think I will ever have that "Experience" again, mainly because I have changed so much. My first graphics MMO, EQ, was a blast, played for years, now I find MMOs bleh for the most part, I still try too many though, why? I want to recapture that "Feeling".

My thought on it, YMMV

Lee

It's okay. People have bad taste in games all the time. I mean people like CoD. You don't have to like MoM, just people who like good games do.

You can pick up the game on GoG right now. It's not just memory or rose colored glasses here. MoM is like X-com, despite the flaws, it was a hell of a lot of fun. I really don't know how to describe it better than that. The game was fun. And if a game is fun enough, you can overlook the flaws and just have a blast.  I know I will have those kinds of experiences again because I still do. I run into new games that just blows my mind and has ben entertained for hours fairly frequently, xcom, mom, sims, homm3, sims 2, DA, ME2... I just want to have fun, and if possible, have fun with my friends too.

Granted, I was less jaded and more enthusiastic when I played MoM, and sometimes I do wonder if at nearly forty it takes more to excite me than it once did. But then I bump into games that make me feel exactly like I did back in the 80s and early 90s when I encountered and played classics like MoM. Just last year, I anticipated Torchlight like a ten year old waiting for Santa, and then I stayed up numerous nights playing until the birds started chirping. Civ 4 did the same to me, and of course, WoW (just like Ultima Online did in 1997). And Starcraft 2, which resulted in a mountain of work piling up on my desk just last month.

So, no, I don't think it's all nostalgia, or that we've become so jaded that only memories bring a smile on our gamer faces. I don't remember every game I played in the 80s and 90s, and I played many at the time, even worked in the industry and for some German video magazines), because they weren't memorable, outstanding or unmatched. MoM is more than just being an old game we had a short-lived romance with when we were innocent and high on the smell of thick manuals. It was the strategy game that may not have been the one with the prettiest face, or the fewest bugs, or the most shapely body, but it was the one that we had the most exciting nights in the basement with, and for a reason. It had character.

One of my favorite parts of MoM was going to the other plane (Mirrorx? or something like that).  Kind of bummed that's not in E:WoM.  (maybe in an expansion?)

MoM used to be my all time favourite 4x game.  That was before Galactic civilisation 2 twillight of the arnor . But Hey MoM still has second place ! Very close behind in third is Alpha centauri and civ 4 in fourth. 

Yes i do love an AI that can kick my butt or at least give me a mental workout. So in the case of MoM if you want that you can try beating the game with a crappy race instead of spamming paladins with high men.

Thanks for the replies - I agree that MOM was a kind of magical empire building sim rather than a true strategy game. I also agree with Lfseeney in that it was the FEELING of playing MOM that i thought was so much FUN.-  i think that if someone re created MOM exactly with modern graphics it would be great -  but then it wouldn't really be taking that next step.  That next step is what i think we all hope Elemental will become.

http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Games/Strategy_Games/Leylines.html by the way that is MOM like game with more modern graphics - not a total clone or anything but still a lot of MOM in a slightly updated form. 

@VR_Ironmana and Master_of_Magic - thank you for the time it took for your replies. On the subject of AI - I find that a lot of AI are simply better than me at keeping track of every little thing to do every single turn -  and I agree that that isn't a good AI really.  To me a good AI simulates playing a human player - a Human player may not know every single tactic in a game and they can't think 50 turns in advance but they are very adaptable and can counter most strategies to some extent.  I personally think that setting the game to Easy should be like playing a novice human player and Hard should be like playing a very Experienced Player - to me that's would be a "good AI" as VR_Ironmana said - i like to feel that the AI could beat me - so do I - but not beat the pants off me all the time.

I also agree that building X building and Y unit is not really good AI but world building and strategy games still do it.  I'd challenge anyone to finish the last 2 or 3 maps of star craft 2 without using Siege tanks or Battle cruisers - in fact the only way i ever finished the last map was the use of large groups of siege tanks.  One "trick"  was blocking the AI's path to the base by building a base or barracks in the path into the base.  Personally i like to have more than one way to overcome a situation and I think that was the really great feeling that MOM provided.  Also personally I don't like having to resort to things that an AI can't really deal with - like building a building in the path into your base - to be able to win.  A human player would Ignore the building and rush the important buildings on the map - AI fails to do so. I'd rather build the best base I could that is a real empire - kingdom - base - etc, then fight it out and see what happens.  Good AI might actually be an AI that makes mistakes and forgets things - with less and less mistakes and forgetting things at higher and higher levels and more and more problem solving ability at higher and higher levels.  Target priority would be a good thing.  Kill the Sovereign - Kill the Catapult.  in that order. or maybe on easy in the reverse order. 

Have a great day all - i'm going to see if i can track down an copy of ley lines and boot it up to see hoe MOM it is. 

Got it

http://crystalshard.net/leylines.htm

it's pretty nasty - but a bit of fun -  sounds like Age of Wonders 2i s going to be available for digital release soon - might try that as I have never played the last one.

Yes, MoM had horrid balance and AI.

And you know what ? That's probably the extent of its flaws - well, it was probably buggy too, but I'm lucky enough to never have experienced this part, just like I've never had a crash in Elemental.

Everything else is pure gold. Sure, the flaws you pointed ARE significant, but the qualities of the game and the amount of features and immersion are STAGGERING. The flaws hamper the playability, but not the awesomeness of the game.

You just explained why so many people want a simple lifting of the game, a "MoM 2.0" with today's graphics and redone balance and AI, and nothing more - or less.

Well I assume that when you say "from the beginning" that you don't mean on day one upon release, becuase Mom was famous for being horribly unstable and buggy when it first came out.