Let's go to the Polls.

you guys wanna poll this to death .. there are about three active polls with this one

Nothing worthwhile is to be gained by going over the same ground again.... patches have been and will be forthcoming!

Lol, you're right. But I think it would be more useful if the choice was between what the devs are actually willing to do.

dear lord no do not use polls to decide what to focus on... Polls only represent those that bother to take them..

We should have a poll to decide whether or not we should do a poll.

At the end of the day, the devs are going to do what the devs are going to do, sometimes even if the outcome of a poll shows that the majority are against it.

The votes give an indication to be taken under consideration, but not as the only factor in making the decisions.

A poll is like any election, so whoever wants to have their vote count can vote. I just think it's a more efficient way of summarising.

I think the DEVS have a lot on their plates atm. Lets give them a break from the attack of the Zombie Game Designers.
We mean well for the most part, and they have our ideas, now it is time for them to decide, not us, where it goes from here. 

When the Python Code is out the rest of the Systems Modding can begin, if there is something you really want to change you can do it.

I am not saying not to give feed back, just let all us stop the "This Part is so bad and would be perfect IF..." 
We have all, myself included given our ideas. 

Time to let them do that voodoo they do.

After 1.09 or 1.1 we can hit them again, but I myself will give them some room, I hope everyone else will as well.

Lee

The DEVs ought to poll themselves for what they want to work on most, and then ask for our approval, or ELSE!! 

(Joking)

You're preaching to the choir here. I have noticed a lot of that lately and am of the same opinion.

As for the polls, I consider them a useful tool for data gathering that can be used as part of decision making, but the devs will and should go with their own instincts as well.

No offense Istari, but this is not an election...

I do see your point but I think the game is served best when the Dev staff follows a vision and uses us a a sounding board/testing bed..

I guess I just fear that programing by committee (at least one as big as these forums) is  more likely  lead us further from a concise vision.. then  to a better one.. In the end either way I will add my 2 cents when needed.. 

Again I am not trying to argue or offend just express my concerns on this matter..

Polls are nice but they should not be the only way the devs make decisions or get the pulse of the community. At best, polls will tell them the things the community feels strongly about but it's only more indepth feedback like the actual forum posts, play testing, and so forth they can help them with how to proceed as well as lesser issues that may relate to larger general feelings.

I think the released version of Elemental lost a lot of the 'vision thing' that was proposed early on.  We did see very major changes to basic parts of the game, right up to release, and it sounds like more are to come.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm right, perhaps one of the reasons is that the vision got 'diluted' by player feedback.

I'm not saying all player feedback was deleterious, or that some player feedback wasn't beneficial.  Just saying that the 'vision thing' is important and it's easy to lose sight of, given deadlines, feature-creep, desire to involve players, desire to be considerate of folks who's opinion one respects, etc. 

There's something to be said for locking the devs up in a room and not letting them out until the 'vision thing' is down pat, then soliciting input.

Based on the way the government works, we need a poll to elect members to a committee, who will then meet and decide if we should have a poll. They will then form a subcommittee to come up with questions, passed back to the committee to be put to a poll. If the questions are approved in that poll, then we can have a poll.

Just throw in a policy department at some point to kibosh the whole thing due to rule 74 subsection 3 of the Internet Polls Act of 1742, and you've pretty much got my work.

Given some of these responses, I'm not sure we should have these polls anymore. I've also become reluctant to consider whether we should have a poll on whether or not to conduct these polls.

If only there were some way to gauge the community's opinion on poll polling......

There was a game that I closely followed the development for that was in the end, basically a victim of design-by-committee.    The game was Tribes Vengeance.   Basically the developers, Irrational Games, was in close contact with the TribalWar and other forums to help them design it more in the vein of the original series of games by Dynamix.

At great length, members of the forum picked apart various mechanics they disliked and Irrational adapted...quite a bit.   Specifically concerning weapon feel, movement feel, and certain mechanics.

In the end, Irrational ended up with a game that tried to be everything to everyone, and while it was a thoroughly decent experience, it was, well, decent.

Nobody plays Tribes Vengeance anymore.  

But plenty of people play the two original Tribes games, even today.  I think what my point is, is while community input and suggestions are excellent, and indeed important things, a game will never turn out well unless a developer has the backbone to, despite all the naysayers, see their own collective vision to fruition.   Trying to adapt every good suggestion that comes along into your game will result in something that's unfocused and, at best, decent; at worst, all over the place.

We don't need a poll.   Let Stardock do their jobs.  And if you aren't satisfied with their design vision or the job they do, there are plenty of other developers willing and happy to sell games to you in the future.

The fact is, Stardock staff members read through the forums and examine ideas and suggestions, and even go so far as to tally up how many mentions of a particular idea or bug have been made so far to get an idea of it's importance to the community and hence, to a degree, the game.

I suggested a group of polls to make that task easier, seeing as it's being done anyway.

However, I agree with pretty much all that you said besides that, and I believe that the devs should, and are going to make decisions according to their main vision of the game. This could mean implementing a popular suggestion completely or in part, or it could mean rejecting something that everyone voted for.

@Istari

I didn't mean any purposeful knock against you, specifically.   I simply meant, in general terms, that the developers will likely review what they think are appropriate and good improvements for the game that fit in their vision, or are particular hot button issues among players  that have objective merit rather than personal preference (And, well, if anything, this forum has demonstrated that people are more than willing to show their opinion on issues!), and integrate those as they see fit.

While a poll is perhaps in some ways a good method to gauge popular opinion, there are plenty of people who lurk the forums and never post (such as myself, much of the time), or people who aren't even aware the forums exist, whose opinions won't get heard.  There is a natural bias toward the more vocal segments of the fanbase there, and that might not be in the best interests of the whole.

In any case, Brad's recent posts regarding the game's overall map of future development hint at a storyboard of sorts--a working plan as to where their targets are for development and what they need to be--already laid down.    We have to trust that, now especially that their eyes are open and they've had a chance to stand back and look at their product, that they can return to it and do what's best.

Our opinions are certainly important things--I myself have brought my own up--but the decision is ultimately theirs; as it should be.

@Tempestwrath

Sorry if it sounded like I took your opinion as an attack or something, it wasn't the tone I intended to convey.

Again, I'm pretty much in agreement with all that you've said, but I do have one thing I'd like to point out.

Regarding who is likely to vote in the polls, these things are only ever going to be a sample of the total population of invested people. From those people who tend to be more vocal, there are plenty who are for and against any given item, and they will be the sample representation of the total, including those who don't vote. What I mean by that is, the votes of the vocal group should still fairly represent the general sway of the silent group to a reasonable degree. In the end, it's only an indication. Of course, the more people who vote, the more accurate that indication is.

So if polls only represent a certain percentage of a specific type of user, they should put a small team together to figure out how much that group represents the feelings of the whole community.

They could probably just ask the community how much these people taking the polls about polling allign with their interests and goals for the game.

They could even set up a convenient tally system on the forums to allow the whole community to quickly and easily guage these pollers relevance.

I think the next step is pretty clear...

Well, not exactly. As far as I understand it, the polls offer a statistic based on a sample of the total population of a set. In this instance, the set is all those people with a vested interest in EWoM (i.e. anyone who has bought or will consider buying the game and its expansions). We will assume that any member of the Elemental forums is included in that set. The sample set in this case is those forum members who choose to vote in a poll.

So firstly, the members of the sample set can't technically be categorised as any specific type of user as regards their use of the product, but rather as coming from a particular source or type of source (I'm not sure exactly what you meant there so I'm just clarifying). Secondly, the degree to which the sample set represents the feelings of the whole community is in part measured by putting the number of people in the sample set against the number of people in the total. There is more to it, but that is normally how relevant information is extracted from surveys and polls.

I was really just making a point about the pointlessness of polling in many cases.

I agree here but.. my I would instead phrase it "possibility of getting skewed data" ( not a slam Sean ) ..

As Istari has mentioned we do share opinions here .. I just want them kept to posts where we get to express our ideas.. instead of being limited to a few choices.. I also still have my fear that "design by committee" dilutes rather then refines... I think what I take away form Istari and rest of us in this thread is that we want dialog on whats going on.. we appreciate when the dev's  respond to our feedback (wither using it or gleaning ideas of their own) and no one does this as well as Stardock in my humble opinion..