[concept] The Relationships between Armies, Heroes, and Epic Units such as Dragons.

This came up in IRC.  I think there needs to be somewhat of an RPS relationship  between the three, but not a hard one.

 

I see it this way

Dragons should crush Armies

Armies should wear down Heroes with numbers

Heroes should slay Dragons

 

The way I look at it.


Dragons should be a real threat to Armies, as Armies should not be able to harm the Dragon much.

 

Dragons should have high HP and high defense, but need to be vulnerable to quality (or magic).  Or maybe give them a fear special ability that makes non-hero units (or units not enchanted with bravery) suffer severe morale/attack penalties to dragons.

heroes should have low HP and high offense and defense.  Heroes need to be vulnerable to quantity.

7,312 views 8 replies
Reply #1 Top

Hmm, the dragon only shows up once though, so a strict rock paper scissors would result in late game heroes not being able to find their target, and armies being the only viable strategy. Of course if we expanded the adventure tree a little this wouldn't be a problem.

 

However, at issue, heroes fall into 3 groups, loosely. Summoners, IE magic tree heroes, that build armies. They're your backrank support, and work fine basically as is. (although summon bombs are way too strong. Summons really need a 1 turn cooldown, so you can't attack, resummon, attack, etc.) (oh, and using in combat mana regeneration, alongside morale crippling on a neutral, summon bombs  can currently kill any target in your territory, regardless of power.)

Battle Mages, that cast spells such as ice spike, haste and deflect to support their troops. Straight forward again, they have more focus on intelligence than their counterparts, but are an alternative method of using the magic tree. It's hard to tell the current state of these units, since they scale to environment, but seem generally fine, with one exception- damage spells don't work right now.

Warriors, heroes that run up and hit their target, and the ones that most people tend to focus on. These units are curious because as it stands they're still brokenly strong and worthlessly weak. IE using certain 'cheap' tactics these heroes can kill any number of enemies on their first round of combat. These heroes mostly rely on the adventure tree, both as a fount of power, and as the tree that rewards their use.

Now, A summoner doesn't directly partake in battle, and a battle mage functions as an empowered troop force- so the third part of your triangle is warrior heroes. The issue here is that the triangle states:

Adventure counters Adventure counters Warfare

IE, the person who invests in Adventure has 2 parts of the triangle, while the person who invests in warfare only gets to be eaten by dragons. Since the very heroes that the armies counter are working alongside dragons, but the armies are not working alongside heroes, it becomes necessary to always rush up adventure.

 

So what alternative do I promote therefore-

Simple: An equal cost of armies squared off against an equal cost of heroes should kill the heroes. Dragons should be seen as an extension of the heroes, basically a cool summon. In return, the heroes gain several defensive advantages allowing them to easily focus larger quantities of force on a specific situation than their rivals are capable of. IE the purpose of armies and heroes differ on the strategic scale. An army is built to attack an enemy, and is thus burdened with heavier upkeeps and a lack of defensive advantages, in return for a better stat to cost ratio. Champions are meant to be used with peaceful strategies that focus on building up resources and overwhelming an enemy only after a decisive advantage has been achieved in the strategic battlefield. Right now, the defensive advantages of heroes, as previously noted, are way too high. However, if we reduce the availability of free mana, the replicability of summons and the capacity to stun multiple units indefinitely, then heroes must fight more fairly. As it stands though, heroes fighting fairly just means heroes dying- they have way too little health to survive even a single blow. This is easily fixed by adding extra hero only items to the item shop that address the discrepancy. (in a game such as elemental tactical combat, wherein one side goes first, it is imperative that the first turn not determine the game. Higher health pools, and the elimination of perma stun would go a long way towards this goal.)

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Arcayer, reply 1
Hmm, the dragon only shows up once though, so a strict rock paper scissors would result in late game heroes not being able to find their target, and armies being the only viable strategy. Of course if we expanded the adventure tree a little this wouldn't be a problem.

 
End of Arcayer's quote

Presently this is not accurate. You obviously haven't researched the Dragon Nest tech... however, it my sincere hope that Stardock will rethink this somehow and make dragon recruitment much more difficult or costly, since my group of 4 young dragons (with my sovereign) wipes out anything I go into battle against. Love those dragon special attacks :-p

Reply #3 Top

only four young dragons! Try 2 Companies of Elite Young Dragons (: 

Reply #4 Top

The diplomacy dragons are rather different from the adventure dragon, and are only available to kingdom. They function too similarly to squads to really be treated separately. Of course, they could be separated, but I see little reason to do so. The diplomacy troops are there mostly as an alternative fighting force for people who don't have combat or magic, and they currently fulfill that role just fine.

Reply #5 Top

Please, no rock-paper-scissors. It's a boring game. If I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors, I wouldn't need a computer.

Reply #6 Top

I tried to do something like this with  Big  - Medium   -   Small   That equal cost armies  Big armies kill medium armies, Medium armies kill small armies, but small armies (like heroes and groups of 2) kill Big armies.

 

I then added a twist for a little bit of extra money you can reverse the direction  so just because an army is Big doesn't mean Small can beat it. It might be build with the reverse weaknesses.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/394023.

I saw Dragons as a type of Super big army, or a type of Medium army, depending on what type of dragon (I assumed the game will eventually have more then 1 dragon.)

Love to hear what you think.

 

Reply #7 Top

Actually I think the triad age of mythology used would be quite suitable to our situation. Short put, it has soldiers, heroes and mythical units. Soldiers kicked heroes's asses, while heroes could kill mythical creatures with ease, and predictably, hydras love to dine on soldiers. Of course the mechanic shouldn't be iron-clad so a sufficiently large army could take out a dragon, or a weak enough hero would become dragon food, or an absurdly powerful wizard could toast wave after wave of soldiers.

Reply #8 Top

Remember that the the "Guardian" upgrade could be basically more mundane "dragon-roles". Medium damage, a little slow, but high armor + hp. 

I've currently modded it so that I get one Guardian @ the City Level, and a second one at City Level +2. (that is, if I promote at 2, I get a level 2 Guardian and a level 4 Guardian). It's been working out pretty well, and the Guardian's aren't particularily overpowered or anything. Strong, sure, but not a huge difference between the guardian unit and a squad with some good equipment. 

I think making Guardians not have an upkeep cost would make it just about perfect, then you could use them to fit into this role.