What happened to the 'avoid city spam' goal?

Assuming I remember correctly, the last version of 'beta' had increasing cost for successive cities.  Release had that removed.

During beta there was a lot of discussion of limiting city spam, of not having Elemental reward the typical 'city spam' strategy.  Examples include:

City Spamming - its easy to avoid

Elemental: Citybuilding (a thread by Viridian a dev, who states in it "Well, first, we didn't want city spam.  Thus, we created a system where building a smaller number of larger, older cities is rewarded."

Boogie's Thoughts on Chancellors, Cities, Snaking and Secession [sic] (another Dev thread, where he states "I believe, above all else, the worlds and nations of Elemental need to grow in a manner parallel to how RPS maps feel...in other words, elimination city spam without eliminating the joys of city building.)

There are a lot more examples of this being discussed.

Other than the 'can't build within X tiles of another city' how does the release version limit city spam?  Is there something I'm missing here?

The beta restriction of increasing gold cost isn't a great way to do it, especially in the later game stage where gold often isn't limiting, but it did have some effect, especially in the early game where the 'compound disinterest' effect of reducing the number of early cities does pay dividends in the later game stages.

So, why was this change made?  It had to be deliberate.  Was it discussed and I missed that?  Was something else inserted to accomplish this, that I've missed?  Is limiting city spam no longer a dev goal?

 

 

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Reply #1 Top

There is nothing in the game limiting city spamming at all. Actually there is very little reason for having large cities. You get to build a few more buildings and get the level up bonuses, but thats it. A huge megacity doesnt make more in taxes, doesnt automatically have more prestige, doesnt produce better/faster units. All you need is a large city to build The Mint and some other buildings you get later in the game. You can only build one of each so no point in making a few strong cities for that either. Its just spam spam spam.

 

Reply #2 Top

Ways to avoid city spamming:

 

1. More expensive pioneers

2. Some sort of maintenance cost based on number of cities

3. More reward for having large cities through getting access to buildings, units or other stuff

4. More aggressive monsters that will demand more defense per city. This would help a LOT in my opinion. As it is now, normal monsters dont go much for cities. Especially bandits or other humanoids should have ambitions. Would be WAY cool if a bandit could take a settlement and actually start his own little empire instead of just wrecking it.

5. Make the AI more aggressive against people who has many cities. The AI should say that you are being too aggressive and need to slow down.

 

Reply #3 Top

I agree, that the current system does not reward bigger and older cities to a sufficient degree. You indeed only need one and the rest offers only a marginal benefit in the form of another multiplier ... if the city produces gold or research points.

However, I also have a strong negative opinion to some aspects that are commonly used to avoid city spam, some of your suggestions in particular or city spam avoidance at all cost in general. Let me explain:

a) The various forms of maintenance cost / corruption or whatever based on city numbers or distance from capital should not penalize success. If I want to conquer the world, which is a legitimate way of ending the game, I should be able to do so without running my empire into an economic meltdown (as e.g. happened with CIV III corruption increase) or having to raze all new cities. Where's the fun in that? The AI should be the challenge, not preventing your empire from imploding while kicking its butt.

b ) The "everybody gangs up on you" solution? I always hated that. What your advocating is essentially the way diplomacy is based on in most 4x games. They can have been your best buddies, be flies beneath the marching feet of your soldiers, have no chance of success at all ... if you reach a critical mass everybody just declares war on you, no explanation given, no previous history taken into account. One algorithm simply takes over. Do you have Lichtenstein declare war on the US because they are the (self-proclaimed) only super-power remaining? No. Sometimes people stick around the big guys.

And long story short you would just again penalize one way of winning the game (i.e. the diplomacy victory) while at the same time being efficient and running a large empire. To get back to my far fetched example. Not only Lichtenstein should be able to achieve a diplomatic victory, the USA should be as well.

c) Monsters aren't a solution. As the game stands now, they are already a bigger threat and more demanding opponent than the AI. And that's not what at least I expect from a strategy game. I want to play against a cunning AI, not a mindless and never-ending spawn of monsters. They should be a nuisance, but not the biggest threat out there. And lets face it: monsters and the possibility to contain them thus are probably the biggest reason behind people spamming cities right now anyway.

d) I agree, that expanding your empire should also come at a cost. And some games found a more or less elegant solution for this e.g. like CIV IV or - just look at your avatar - even the MOO3 with its overhead. Both of the games also offered technologies or buildings that help you reduce these costs to some degree (which are a MUST in my opinion as it allows the player to tackle these negative effects and not just be a victim to them) and could be modded to get rid of them, if that didn't fit your idea what's fun. Yes, some people actually LIKE city spamming. Don't just punish them, because you dislike it.

e) With more expensive pioneers you have to be very careful not to slow down the pace of the game in the beginning to a crawl. I seriously would not enjoy it e.g. to have to hope for lucky goodie huts, not build anything else or spam the end turn button so often just to save enough gold for my first or second pioneer.

All in all, one should be careful with the tools to limit city spam and not accidentally penalize players for playing while effectively and efficiently wanting to expand their empires. Not everybody likes playing a city state ... and most historic ones where not really happy only being a city state either. *evil grin*

Rabenhoff

 

EDIT: Is there some way to turn auto-smilies off?


EDIT2: Made a new post instead of the edit as it got bigger and bigger.

Reply #4 Top

I think that the risk reward ratio needs to be roughly right.  If it is too easy just to spam cities and there is practically no downside, *that* is a problem.  There has to be a reward for being bigger, more specialized cities.  Otherwise why let cities (apart from the first one) grow at all?  If there is high reward for virtually no risk (as I think it is at the moment with city spam) that is a problem.  And when you think about it, how many civilizations in ancient times or in medieval fantasy stories built completely new cities every few years?  There *are* advantages to having a few, specialized cities, and I think the game needs to show that is a very viable way to go.

Best regards,
Steven.

Reply #5 Top

Maybe I should also present a way to limit city spam as well? So be it. I will again take the US during their western expansion as an example. All the people moving westward basically did not settle in the east. Simple as that, probably even too simplistic ... but well. Why not transfer something like that to 4x games. Make the growth of cities interdependent, while at the same time offering big incentives for a metropolis style city. If your expanding your borders, claiming new territories than people just migrate their from your core lands. Reducing growth there and thus your possibility of gaining those juicy metropolis bonuses. Something along this line was also hinted at in MMO3 (a game with many good intentions, but poor implementation in my opinion). But in that game you could just stop people from migrating and they didn't do it to any meaning- or harmful extent.

But as with maintenance cost and the like, you should also here have some form of countermeasure. Lets say prestige buildings that keep some people from becoming settlers in the wild wild west. City spamming should make it sufficiently harder for you to get a metropolis bonus, but not impossible.

Reply #6 Top

I really, really like Rabenhoff's idea of population functioning as an interconnected system.  If you extend the system to include foreign powers, it also elegantly solves the "enemy AI creeps pioneers into every crevice it can find between your influence" issue.  The pioneers would set up shop, build a few houses, and then decide that their city sucks and beat tracks for the goliath metropolis with insane prestige 6 squares over.  Instead of being a pain in the rear, the pioneers turn into the opponent paying to send people to your kingdom (pretty important to encourage the AI to not do this, naturally :) ).

You really need more prestige-altering buildings to make this feel granular and effective as a system (the singular palace isn't going to cut it), but I think it has a lot of potential to be interesting.  

Sub-note : behind the scenes, I think that modeling (in parallel) both in-city birth rates as well as "in the wild" people being drawn into the city has merit.  Birth rate produces your steady growth, while "in the wild" populations (hill hermits and the like) are relatively finite and give an early boost for staking out a claim in the middle of nowhere.  The post-cataclysm world is supposed to be riddled with pockets of disorganized civilization, so this makes sense lore-wise as well.

Reply #7 Top

I think a quick thing they could do that would help is just increase the rate that influence border expand or alternatively give more buildings that increase influence.

Right now I'm rushing to good resource locations and those are the cities that end up getting leveled up so I can maximize the multiplier. Sometimes the good resource spots are really spread out, so in between is where I am spamming level 1 cities and basically the only reason I am doing it is to link up and push out my influence borders to keep the monster spawns at bay.

As a side note, I really think they need to do something with population, whether it be taxes or whatnot, to make large cities more special as well as make food the scarce and special resource it's supposed to be (since right now it's easy to get enough food for 2-3 level 5 cities and then just spam level 1 cities in all the resource poor areas).