"Ridiculous" size Medium 10 opponents - beaten in 93turns

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http://www.filesavr.com/xGm01x3F
from Elemental Forums

Hey, just beat ridiculous setting (with 10 enemy AI also all set to ridiculous) on a medium map by turn 93.  I have attached the file and will summarize how I did it in an effort to help guide Stardock towards better game balance and improved AI.  (I have done it the other ways too, slow and epic turn400 buildsprees, quest paths, etc)
If I can do it, im sure many others can also and even better - the game needs to toughen up. 

I didn't start out the game with this plan, I wanted to build after rushing my first opponent, each city I took was such a pushover that I kept going till I had the whole worldl.  In retrospect I think with the right planning it can all be done in 60 turns, maybe even as low as 50.

http://www.filesavr.com/xGm01x3F

My overall strategy revolved around heroes (as empire even, but it doesn't have to be)

My leader had all the military traits and with worgs/archery defeated the first two opponents by turn 40 or so.  The natural strength of the leader (and with some mage buffs) is hard for the AI to counter early - other AI's also give you gold to declare war - I think I got about 1200 to declare war on my two immediate neighbors back when I was making around 5 gold a turn - if you do it right, you can get quite the boost in gold right before your first few conquests enough to buy the gear you need.

After that I focused on magic to get +movement +str amulets, and the crazy good magic armor.  Then teched towards that +40 hammer.  I also infused about 5 characters i collected along the way with mana and made them mage archers.  Eventually a 2nd character evolved into a fighter with some movement as well for cleanup work.  The basic strategy was to rush to cities at speeds that increased from 6 movement to eventually 25 and use the gold to strengthen the main character.  The mages had bows/mana/spells.  I used them to buff my hero, summon fodder troops, and lightning bolt enemy casters.  They were only relevent in about 10% of battles (the tough ones)  the rest of the time they just tagged along and regenerated mana.  Movement past 25 (or even 20) seemed redundant, you loose your moves after taking over a city and rarely did I ever travel more than 10-15 distance between taking over cities.  The goal is to take over a city with your main stack every 2 turns.

90% of the battles were pushover ressistance.  

also towards the end as the main stack went for the capitals, the spare wizards were strong enough to go on side runs (minor gangs and minor cities) eventually to teleport back to the main party. 

Towards turn 80-93 the game became a little difficult as the last bastions of AI empires finally started getting strong.  Fortunately by then I had dozens of shards to boost my magic attacks to the 100's level.  (area attack for 5, or long range for 2-3 mana)  5 wizards with 10 mana and you can devestate any army the AI can muster pre turn 100.  I conserved mana for these tough battles as the overall rush happens so quick you barely get a chance to heal/recharge.

-----------------------------------

 

Was this fun?  yes, it was an interesting challenge, certainly more fun than sitting back and building up when you know you can conquer everything sooner.  of course I wouldn't want to replay it this way, the AI need to be better prepared for early attacks.  Also heros need more health - or at least some kind of "survive the battle" mechanic (if you win, they come back with 1hp, etc).  Every now and then there was a fluke and my defense 40 leader got 1 shot killed by a 25 attack unit.

This is of course a result of balance issues / too random die mechanics that have been discussed to death in the suggestions forum.

 

Final thoughts:

Game needs more balance, better AI, less crashes.  I really did enjoy it and look forward to when it matures into what could be really amazing.

 

Edit:  I gave up developing the original cities after turn 40 or so, I just let them sit idle doing whatever they wanted.  The gold from conquest and the advancements of conquered cities were more than enough to fuel the madness (by then city development seemed like a timesink)

elemental
15,031 views 23 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

With a 4x game, there's always a way to rush win if you want...but what fun is that?  I prefer a very slow build.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting charon2112, reply 1
With a 4x game, there's always a way to rush win if you want...but what fun is that?  I prefer a very slow build.
End of charon2112's quote

The point IS TO WIN - at least, I'm pretty sure the point isn't to lose.

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Well my point is that its hard to enjoy a slow build when you know you can just take over the nearby city, and the one next to it and double your empire.  Then where do you stop?  I wanted to stop and build, but I couldn't rationalize it.  

 

I can set my own "rules" about how to play/enjoy the game sure, but I imagined on the hardest setting all strategies should be difficult to beat the AI with.

 

Lets take it to the extreme, lets say in this game you had a button that kills an enemy opponent in 1 turn and its big and red.  Sure you can play the game how you want, but its more enjoyable if that button is removed.  Or doesn't work.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

This game is so easy right now its silly.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ElradV, reply 3

Lets take it to the extreme, lets say in this game you had a button that kills an enemy opponent in 1 turn and its big and red.  Sure you can play the game how you want, but its more enjoyable if that button is removed.  Or doesn't work.
End of ElradV's quote

 

That's true, but those exploits exist in any game, in Civ IV you can rush build axemen and take over the world very quickly, there definitely a technique for galciv 2, it just doesn't come to mind.  To me, that big button is no fun, because I love long, drawn out games...so I would never push it.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 2

Quoting charon2112, reply 1With a 4x game, there's always a way to rush win if you want...but what fun is that?  I prefer a very slow build.

The point IS TO WIN - at least, I'm pretty sure the point isn't to lose.
End of TheProgress's quote

 

nah...I'd take a long, exciting game ending in a loss, than a quick win.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

The point IS TO WIN - at least, I'm pretty sure the point isn't to lose.
End of quote

The point is to have fun. :p

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

It sounds like the problem may be too many bonuses stacking - it sounds downright weird to have 20+ movement. How do you even do that?

 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

I had a similar experience with my min-maxed melee sovereign.  Minimal essence, no spellbooks, just a seriously badass dervish of death.  The only fights that were even remotely challenging were once where I could get one-shotted by the odd ogre or spiders and their "hey, let's web that guy the whole combat" mechanic.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Yeah, it's very hit and miss right now.

 

As an aside, I'm not playing to win, I'm playing to enjoy myself a little. Steamrolling AI's that cant defend themselves isnt entertaining even a little bit. Personally I think most of the game is pretty imbalanced at the moment, but I wouldnt want to derail the thread.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting charon2112, reply 5
...That's true, but those exploits exist in any game, in Civ IV you can rush build axemen and take over the world very quickly...
End of charon2112's quote
Not even remotely the same.

Civ4s rushes are balanced and require some luck (there has to be enemies in a decent range, without many archers/chariots/protective trait, map type, etc.) and some skill (balancing how many cities to keep, knowing when to continue and when to switch to building infrastructure, etc.).

Rushes should be a viable strategy but should require skill and a bit of luck to pull off (as any viable strategy should).

Are you claiming that is the situation now in Elemental, and that therefore there's no need to balance this?  And that "...those exploits..." as you call them should remain?

If not then I don't see why you responded to the OP as you did.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

AI is probably THE most challenging aspect of any game to code/program. I truly don't envy Brad the job ahead of him, but, I'm greatly looking forward to the results of his efforts over the coming months. Granted, the best AI's are the ones who can pose a challenge without Cheating, but, I honestly don't think too many of us would mind having a AI that cheated just a little bit on the Hardest settings. I imagine right now the thing holding the AI back the most is that it doesn't take into account all the spells and abilities it has and doesn't use those to the most advantage that it could. It will take Brad a long time to get all those hooked into the AI so it can use them intelligently, but when it can I think things will be Much More Challenging for the player.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

All this conversation is for naught until the infinite accessories mechanic gets nerfed into oblivion.

 

The most imba accesory isn't attack or moves or hp, it's combat speed. Every time you attack you get to play first, so with combat speed of 13 or something equally big, you lay waste to all that could oppose you in the first turn. I know, cause my sovereign cleared monster armies with CR 2500 in the first turn she attacked.

Also getting the gold is easy, just farm the forest monsters outside your territory for gold. Even at the start you get rewards of hundreds of gold, that you use to buy even more accessories.

 

Yes, the point of the game is to have fun. This can be interpreted in many ways. Most people will prefer a balanced challenge. Defeating hordes of lvl 1 monsters with your lvl 100 hero is fun for the first couple of minutes or hours. It gets boring fast, because there is no challenge.

 

The crazy spider webbing is ok, it was supposed that an army of many units makes the attack, not a solo adventurer. If you go solo and end your turn b4 you kill all of the webbing spiders, you get what you deserve.

 

Also note that the AI isn't buying infinite accessories for its heroes. Imagine the outcry for balance in these forums then when the AI would destroy entire player armies and cities with only its sovereign. Also the game would become extreme. The sov who attacked first the other sov would always win. Just w8 and see, next week the MP servers are coming online. I'd like to see what all of the Mr.T proponents will have to say then...

 

And I can't find that <accessory_limit> tag anywhere...

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 12
AI is probably THE most challenging aspect of any game to code/program. I truly don't envy Brad the job ahead of him, but, I'm greatly looking forward to the results of his efforts over the coming months. Granted, the best AI's are the ones who can pose a challenge without Cheating, but, I honestly don't think too many of us would mind having a AI that cheated just a little bit on the Hardest settings. I imagine right now the thing holding the AI back the most is that it doesn't take into account all the spells and abilities it has and doesn't use those to the most advantage that it could. It will take Brad a long time to get all those hooked into the AI so it can use them intelligently, but when it can I think things will be Much More Challenging for the player.
End of Raven's quote

Normally when a game has a little more design time, it's important to for abilities to be designed with the AI in mind. There are quite a few abilities, spells, features, etc. that might be really cool but which a designer might choose not to put into a game because they know that the AI will not be able to handle it well at all. It's really something that needs to be worked on paralel to game design, not as a seperate part you do at the end.

What will make it a very uphill battle for Stardock now is the fact that they added a lot of to the game without taking the time to test out if the AI could actually deal with it. It will be interesting to see if they can ever make it work without a serious game redesign.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting charon2112, reply 5

Quoting ElradV, reply 3
Lets take it to the extreme, lets say in this game you had a button that kills an enemy opponent in 1 turn and its big and red.  Sure you can play the game how you want, but its more enjoyable if that button is removed.  Or doesn't work.
 

That's true, but those exploits exist in any game, in Civ IV you can rush build axemen and take over the world very quickly, there definitely a technique for galciv 2, it just doesn't come to mind.  To me, that big button is no fun, because I love long, drawn out games...so I would never push it.
End of charon2112's quote

It may be true that such "exploits" exist in any game, but it doesn't mean they have to be there - they can be fixed. Sure you can deliberately avoid that one strategy that always leads to an easy win, but isn't it a better game if the strategy is fixed so it's about as viable as any other way you might want to play? Even if it's impossible to make a game absolutely perfect, you can still try to make a game as close to perfect as possible, and every exploit that gets removed or imbalanced tactic that gets balanced moves the game a liiittle closer to perfect.

Besides, what if that one style of play - the one that wins too easily - is the way some people would naturally prefer to play, even if it wasn't the best strategy? What do you tell them - sorry, if you rush in this game the AI can't deal with it, you have to play a peaceful builder if you want a good game? Surely the people who enjoy going to war early and often (not because it's the ultimate strategy, but just for the fun of it) deserve a balanced and challenging game as much as anyone else.

[Note: I'm a peaceful techer myself at heart, never cared for rushing. I just want to see a balanced game I can replay over and over with different strategies each time, without feeling like any one strategy is an easy win and the others are self-imposed hard mode. Which is, of course, the point of "I used strategy x and beat the ridiculous AI in y turns" posts - not to brag or glorify strategy x, but to help Stardock improve the game by highlighting imbalances.]

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Austinvn, reply 15

Quoting charon2112, reply 5
Quoting ElradV, reply 3
Lets take it to the extreme, lets say in this game you had a button that kills an enemy opponent in 1 turn and its big and red.  Sure you can play the game how you want, but its more enjoyable if that button is removed.  Or doesn't work.
 

That's true, but those exploits exist in any game, in Civ IV you can rush build axemen and take over the world very quickly, there definitely a technique for galciv 2, it just doesn't come to mind.  To me, that big button is no fun, because I love long, drawn out games...so I would never push it.

It may be true that such "exploits" exist in any game, but it doesn't mean they have to be there - they can be fixed. Sure you can deliberately avoid that one strategy that always leads to an easy win, but isn't it a better game if the strategy is fixed so it's about as viable as any other way you might want to play? Even if it's impossible to make a game absolutely perfect, you can still try to make a game as close to perfect as possible, and every exploit that gets removed or imbalanced tactic that gets balanced moves the game a liiittle closer to perfect.

Besides, what if that one style of play - the one that wins too easily - is the way some people would naturally prefer to play, even if it wasn't the best strategy? What do you tell them - sorry, if you rush in this game the AI can't deal with it, you have to play a peaceful builder if you want a good game? Surely the people who enjoy going to war early and often (not because it's the ultimate strategy, but just for the fun of it) deserve a balanced and challenging game as much as anyone else.

[Note: I'm a peaceful techer myself at heart, never cared for rushing. I just want to see a balanced game I can replay over and over with different strategies each time, without feeling like any one strategy is an easy win and the others are self-imposed hard mode.]
End of Austinvn's quote

 

Oh, of course it would be better if it there were no way to rush and steamroll the AI.  I just wanted to point out that this is a problem in many TBS games...

Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top

I did notice you could get one of each pack etc.... I Never did try to get MORE than one of each pack, ring etc.

Some sort of restriction there would make sense, yes. Two medkits isn't usually better than one, for instance. Common sense. :D

Two rings, one amulet, one or two packs.. that would be more 'standard' for the genre.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

So you play it like I play competitive starcraft. That's nice. I'm here to have fun building my empire.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 12
AI is probably THE most challenging aspect of any game to code/program. I truly don't envy Brad the job ahead of him, but, I'm greatly looking forward to the results of his efforts over the coming months.
End of Raven's quote

Yep. Maybe the AI won't be @ Galciv2-ToA AI level 'til the first expansion even, but considering that Brad's time was very limitied with regard to writing the AI....it's totally acceptable I guess. The AI will be decent eventually, I am 100% sure about it.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting charon2112, reply 1
With a 4x game, there's always a way to rush win if you want...but what fun is that?  I prefer a very slow build.
End of charon2112's quote

Yep once I read he grunt rushed I stopped reading there because that is NOT A STRATEGY it's an EXPLOIT and can be done in ALL games. So this thread is dead next.....??

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting rossanderson48, reply 20

Yep once I read he grunt rushed I stopped reading there because that is NOT A STRATEGY it's an EXPLOIT and can be done in ALL games. So this thread is dead next.....??
End of rossanderson48's quote

Finish reading things before you object to them.
You're not gonna have a stroke if you try to absorb more than three sentences.

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting rossanderson48, reply 20

Quoting charon2112, reply 1With a 4x game, there's always a way to rush win if you want...but what fun is that?  I prefer a very slow build.


Yep once I read he grunt rushed I stopped reading there because that is NOT A STRATEGY it's an EXPLOIT and can be done in ALL games. So this thread is dead next.....??
End of rossanderson48's quote

 

an exploit that can be done in all games?     its more of a balance issue.  Other games in order to discourage certain "early rush" playstyles get added counters.  the cheaper/easier these counters get, the less likely the opponent is to rush.

 

If they are lazy they can just give the AI cities a 0 move super unit that can't be beaten by anything pre-turn 100.

Of course there are many more elegant ways to do this, the point of the post was to help draw awareness that there needs to be an elegant way to counter rushing.

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

How fast can you do it on large? ;p