The Death squad dilemma - read and agree

How squads/parties should work

from Elemental Forums

I've looked through ALOT of forum posts and the only time I've seen this idea is when it's mentioned by me. I'm sorry if this already has been discussed in another thread, there are after all quite alot of them.

As it is now grouping units together is WAY overpowered, making it the only viable choice for your mid-late game armies. The problem is that *every* stat stacks together. I would like to propose a solution that I think would solve the problem while still keeping groups as a good option, just not the ONLY option.

Instead of stacking everything together it should work like this: Whenever a group of four soldiers wielding broadswords attack an enemy, four rolls are made, i.e four times 1-10 in damage. This is already implemented. However, the defender should get to roll for defense four times also. Against even a little armor the dmg would be considerably less. A good thing.

As for the defense, it should not stack. It's not like you have to slice through all of the soldiers armors at the same time. And as long as you don't get crazy attack values (because of adding it up) you don't need crazy armor values, just reasonable ones.

The HP on the other hand, SHOULD stack, making the unit worth paying for (you still have to put armor on all of them even though the value doesn't stack.)

 

With this implemented, groups would be a tactical choice instead of a necessity. Maybe having four seperate units is a better choice because they can all pick different targets every round, and they still get the same defense value as the squad? On the other hand the survivability of the squad is ALOT higher since the HP stacks.

 

I just think this would be the perfect way to nerf them without over complicating things, so go ahead and agree with me. Please?

Tomas

 

 

12,932 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Oh you're not the only one. I've been saying that the squad combat should more closely emulate MoM's combat - no one has yet to really aknowledge this.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Whenever they attack an enemy, four rolls should be made against the enemies defense, i.e. four times 1-10 in damage, instead of the one time 1-40 they have now.
End of quote

That's how it is already. Frogboy's words. That doesn't change the fundamental problem: the damage should be compared to defense individually for each unit; not just once for the whole unit. 

And defense stacks, which is ridiculous.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

you are wrong with your assessment at least to frogboy:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/392412/page/1/#2730740

 

it already works as you describe

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Try talkiing to the Spartans about defense not stacking...or even the Romans...Heck even the modern military could have stackable defense, just due to they way we communicate back and forth.  Defense stacking makes perfect sense when you think of them as a group...not individuals.  Thats why they are so deadly...they attack together, rather than just as individuals.  Not to mention, you got my back, I got yours.  Thus your defense would go higher when someone is covering you.  Lose them, and then your ass is grass.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Ok, if it already is that way, then we don't even have a problem! Just make it so that every roll is compared to the defense individually exactly as you stated, AND REMOVE THE DEFENSE STACK. Problem solved.

This would also go a long way towards making magic better, since we wouldn't have these super defense units.

 

As a side note though, I would also like it to say that the attack of the unit should say 4x10 in the info, and not 40, because it's a world of difference if they start seperating the defense rolls. Which they should. Have I mentioned that already? :|

 

Tomas

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting jmccrea, reply 4
Try talkiing to the Spartans about defense not stacking...or even the Romans...Heck even the modern military could have stackable defense, just due to they way we communicate back and forth.  Defense stacking makes perfect sense when you think of them as a group...not individuals.  Thats why they are so deadly...they attack together, rather than just as individuals.  Not to mention, you got my back, I got yours.  Thus your defense would go higher when someone is covering you.  Lose them, and then your ass is grass.
End of jmccrea's quote

 

No. A "synergy" defense bonus makes sense. Defense stacking doesn't. 1000 spartans cannot soak a nuclear weapon. 10000 peasants in leather armor are still food for a 200 knights charge (the knights might not survive, but many, many peasants will die).

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

jmccrea, you have a point, although i do not agree. In elemental the defense comes from armor, and armor does not get thicker just because several people wearing it huddle together. And maybe more importantly, it is kind of a game breaker, at least to me. Any way, I'll admit your reasoning is sound, I just don't agree it's the way it should be done in Elemental.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Werewindlefr, reply 6

Quoting jmccrea, reply 4Try talkiing to the Spartans about defense not stacking...or even the Romans...Heck even the modern military could have stackable defense, just due to they way we communicate back and forth.  Defense stacking makes perfect sense when you think of them as a group...not individuals.  Thats why they are so deadly...they attack together, rather than just as individuals.  Not to mention, you got my back, I got yours.  Thus your defense would go higher when someone is covering you.  Lose them, and then your ass is grass.
 

No. A "synergy" defense bonus makes sense. Defense stacking doesn't. 1000 spartans cannot soak a nuclear weapon. 10000 peasants in leather armor are still food for a 200 knights charge (the knights might not survive, but many, many peasants will die).
End of Werewindlefr's quote

 

Spot on.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

based on my experience with the game, at minimum, defense is stacking (it looked like attack was stacking too, but I could be wrong). How do I know defense was stacking? I had a unit (single unit) with 20 attack. My target was a group of 4 enemies, with a combined defense of 32. When I attacked, I missed completely - if defense is not stacking then I should have hit at least one of the opposing enemies.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 9
based on my experience with the game, at minimum, defense is stacking (it looked like attack was stacking too, but I could be wrong). How do I know defense was stacking? I had a unit (single unit) with 20 attack. My target was a group of 4 enemies, with a combined defense of 32. When I attacked, I missed completely - if defense is not stacking then I should have hit at least one of the opposing enemies.
End of TheProgress's quote
And here we have the main problem: a powerful unit (even at 32 attack, it'd still be the same) cannot hit/can barely hit a stack of rather weak ones. As a result? 

-Research stack techs first, and equipment. 

-Make huge stacks.

-Steamroll dragons.

-Win the game.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Right now it doesn't matter if you have a single unit or not, because the rolls aren't worked out individually. Even though seperate rolls are being made for attack, they still stack them up before they compare with the defense roll. And I suppose they also make seperate defense rolls for every unit, but still stack them up before comparing to the attack value. So in effect, your enemies probably had an even better defense than a single unit with 32 defense would have. Because the final roll is 4-32, when a single unit with 32 def rolls 1-32.

The best thing about this is that it should be pretty easy to fix. I'm no programmer though so I might be wrong.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting jmccrea, reply 4
Try talkiing to the Spartans about defense not stacking...or even the Romans...Heck even the modern military could have stackable defense, just due to they way we communicate back and forth.  Defense stacking makes perfect sense when you think of them as a group...not individuals.  Thats why they are so deadly...they attack together, rather than just as individuals.  Not to mention, you got my back, I got yours.  Thus your defense would go higher when someone is covering you.  Lose them, and then your ass is grass.
End of jmccrea's quote

 

I agree with this, defense stacking does make sense because IMO, it's not just the *defense* and the *weapons* of the unit, it's also the *numbers* of solders in the unit, one man, no mater how well armed he is, is going to walk up to a company of 12 men and be anything but stomped into the floor while his opponents wonder why the lunatic thought he could win a 12 to 1 battle.

 

The Spartans were on to something, superior training and cordination made them able to withstand armies ten to thousands of times there size. Rome made this work so well they took over a massive chunk of the known world by doing so, while the disorganized barbarian hordes, were curbstomped into speaking Latin.

In elemental terms, the armies who didn't go at it in as large of squads or with poor equipment, are at a disadvantage.

 

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Akitoscorpio, reply 12

 one man, no mater how well armed he is, is going to walk up to a company of 12 men and be anything but stomped into the floor while his opponents wonder why the lunatic thought he could win a 12 to 1 battle.

 
 
End of Akitoscorpio's quote

One heavily armored knight against 12 peasants with wooden spears and padded armor? He's going to crush them like bugs. At the very least he'll take a few of them to hell with him.

As it is, even 4 of those peasants are going to kill the knight without a single loss. That makes no sense at all. Actually, your 12 guys can kill a giant. Or a dragon. Unscathed.  

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Werewindlefr, reply 13

Quoting Akitoscorpio, reply 12
 one man, no mater how well armed he is, is going to walk up to a company of 12 men and be anything but stomped into the floor while his opponents wonder why the lunatic thought he could win a 12 to 1 battle.

 
 
One heavily armored knight against 12 peasants with wooden spears and padded armor? He's going to crush them like bugs. At the very least he'll take a few of them to hell with him.

As it is, even 4 of those peasants are going to kill the knight without a single loss. That makes no sense at all. Actually, your 12 guys can kill a giant. Or a dragon. Unscathed.  
End of Werewindlefr's quote

if 12 men with powerful enough weapons gets the jump and attacks first then sure I can see them dropping a dragon in this game, after all we all know what they say about "death of a thousand cuts" right?

 

Animation of one man walking up and twacking the dragon notwithstanding, those other 11 men are back there are in truth just as involved with there dragon twacking duty

 

furthermore your eyes failed you when I mention the part where I pointed out that yes equipment plays a factor.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

if 12 men with powerful enough weapons gets the jump and attacks first then sure I can see them dropping a dragon in this game, after all we all know what they say about "death of a thousand cuts" right?
End of quote
That's not how it is at the moment, and that's not the issue.

You're talking about 12 elite guys. Sure, I'm okay with 12 elite guys killing a dragon (with a few losses, of course). That's the point of elite troops. You don't need attack/defense stacking for that! You just need to balance the game so that a good troop can reasonably wound a dragon.

I'm not okay with them leaving unscathed, which is what it is right now. I'm not okay with 12 peasants being able to kill that dragon, or 4 peasants steamrolling a knight with no losses. I'm not okay with 4 guys being vastly more powerful just because they're on the same tile. Working as a group makes you stronger, it doesn't make you godlike. A group of 12 peasants fighting 3 groups of 4 peasant units should be wounded, take losses even. It's not the case as the game is.