[gameplay] Dump the Diplomacy Tree.

I would rather some of the basic treaties be available without research, like NAP and territory access, but the more advanced ones can stay researchable. There's other stuff in the tree besides just treaties, so I wouldn't want the whole thing dumped.

Shameless promotion of my thread that was lost in the flood of new topics:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/393020

The Diplomacy system in Elemental is broken, actually.

I agree that the whole idea of the diplomacy tree (and diplomatic capital) feels pretty artificial to me, but I guess it serves its purpose in term of gameplay and balance. Trade can significantly improve your finances early in the game but the needed research and caravans building can put you to a disadvantage against a faction that focused on military techs from the get go; and this all leads to interesting strategic choice.

If trade and treaties were made available to all from the get go, I think there wouldn't be any valid reason *not* to trade with neighbors, which would make the whole thing pointless and even punish factions that don't have immediate neighbors. Maybe treaties could come with a steep price without the tech or when two factions initiate trade with each other, the one with the trade tech could get a significant advantage, but this will be just as artificial as the current implementation.

So instead of asking to have the most basic treaties to be accesible without research, you just go and ask to have a whole tree removed? Wow.

Admittedly, the diplomatic tree is pretty weak compared to the others. It's not such a stretch to merge it in the civilization tree. Or not
In any case, it definitely needs some more work.

I guess the only problem with that is that the civ tree is packed full of stuff. It's definately the most robust tree as it is. Still, you could probably spread the important stuff among the other trees. The warfare tree has alot of room for some stuff. Warfare is a foreign policy function after all.

But what if, instead of deleting the diplomacy tree, Stardock filled it with other interesting techs somewhat related to diplomacy, speeches, manipulating and convincing other peoples to share your views? Do you recall those nice lil' diplomats back in Civ 1? They could buy enemy units. They could incite a revolt, or at least sow the seeds of dissidence (I like how that sounds when you say it :P) among the enemy's armies or population. Lower morale, spying on cities, making your troops feel more confident, making your population happier... there are many things that could be linked to the diplomacy tech tree. It doesn't need deletion: it needs to be fleshed out (and the current, existing techs need to be merged into a fewer techs with more individual value).

Agree.

Split what's in there between the Adventuring and Civ trees and replace it with a race-specific tree to try and get some differentiation between the factions/races.

Propaganda, brainwashing, and skullduggery would be excellent additions to the diplomacy tree, in my opinion.

I think that dumping the Diplomacy tree is a little extreme.  My suggestions....

Right now the minor races are either too weak to matter, or too powerful.   You don't have much choice as far as minor race units are concerned either.  Lastly you are limited to an empire/kingom branch of minor races.

1)  Remove the kingdom/empire branch (since minor race settlements spawn randomly)

Instead make it an either-or choice.  For example darkling have a natural hatred for spiders.  So when you reach the apporpriate level you have to choose which race you will support and can no longer use the other.

2)  Expand the diplomacy tree to allow research for minor race abilities/equipment.  Then instead of just getting one unit, you get another base unit option in the unit editor.  So if you delve into the dipomacy tree enough you can equip your ogers with clubs and armor, or make rock spiders instead of just black widows.

3)  Another portion of the tree can grant you a special bonus depending on which race you control.  For example spiders will allow your units to use poison in combat.  Ogers, can give you a new building (Oger Workshop) which allows you to use Oger labor to increase your cities construction, and production.

4) Have a diplomacy tech that can create the Council of Kingdoms/Empires.  Sort of like the UN option in CIV.

5) Having a researchable Vassal State dipomatic option.  All those minor kingdoms.....

6) Have some basic dipomatic options available at the start

So, in response to 2), you mean like getting Uruk-Hai as an upgrade to orcs sort of deal?  Because that sounds excellent to me.  Picking allies in general sounds excellent as well, and there would be the potential for non-combat bonuses in addition to "better units" and "moar flavor".  Riding Spiders, anyone?

I decided to climb the diplomacy tree a little more, and I think I agree that dumping it is a bit harsh. Natural interactions with other kingdoms/empires needs to be kept out of it though.

Exactly!

I like the idea of expanding the diplomacy tree with the ideas presented here. Currently the diplomacy tree; as many have said is too short, and does not really give you the flavor of diplomacy.

As suemperincomitatatus suggeste allow a player to persue a racial affinity - i.e. spiders and then unlock new spider related units.

As werewindlefr suggested add a intelligence network tree that allows players to build intelligence related buildings, execute intelligence relate activities, recruit spies (that you can send into enemy empires) and get intelligence reports.

Example:

a. Intelligence Network Tree

1: Intelligence Network - build intelligence HQ; allows recruitment of Spy Champions. Spy Recruitment allows you to recruit champions that can be recruited by other lords, once recruited they update your intelligence report on that kingdom periodicially - starting every 20 turns. This can be reduced to 10 turns with further research.

2. Covert Communications - updates spy report every 15 turns

3. Improved Covert Communications - Updates spy report every 10 turns

4. Counter Intelligence - build Counter Intelligence HQ Building; allows player increased chance to uncover enemy spies and prevent sabatoge or assassination operations. Each building you build increases the chance of detecting enemy spies or assasins that enter this city.

5. Assasins School - Where Assassins are recruited Assasins can be sent into an enemy city to slay an enemy champion or lord. Assasination attacks are resolved on the tactical map.

6. Royal Guard - This technology gives the lord access to additional guard units in the event of an assasintation attempt.  Assassinations are resolved on the tactical map.

Example: Player A builds the Assassins school and builds an Assassin. This unit appears as a champion unit the enemy cannot communicate with. The Assassin enters a city and can target any 1) random champion or 2) enemy lord present in that city or 3) do nothing. If enemy lord is selected the Assassin and the Enemy Lord face off on the tactical map. If the enemy lord has researched Royal Guard he is accompanied by d4 champions (or guards if no champions in that tile). If not he faces the assassin alone.

7. Expert Assasins - An improved assasins building can be built. Expert assasins of this school appear as champions that can be recruited to the enemy and attack their target one on one if they were recruited by that enemy fraction.

Now the player has to think; is that champion I want to recruit a spy or an assassin?

I'd like to see diplomacy have a major branch covering espionage and a moderate branch covering propaganda which can increase prestige for your cities and encourage allies to seek you out. I admit I haven't gone more than half way down the tree but I really didn't see much worthwhile so far.

As a weaker branch it might be better to spice it up by combining some of the less useful abilities into larger ones making more bang for your buck.

Agree with you on this.  Opening up Diplomacy and having a Diplomacy/Espionage tree would be the largest benefit.

One simple solution would be that each level of diplomacy tech grants a +5% to diplomatic trade, therefore, you benefit from better deals. I'd rather do that then make it super complicated or remove it completely.

Interesting ideas, I have tried to get a meta thread started on the Diplomacy tree...  Shameless post promotion:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/395966

I think the idea behind the tree is fine, but it needs expansion.

Dump the tree? My vote is no..

I am solidly in the camp against dumping the tree and against losing early diplomacy techs..

I support expanding the tree to give it more depth but I do not support removing techs.. I see it this way when we are just forming our nation we barely understand how to get along with our own people.. Diplomacy techs represent and investment in time and effort to figure out how to better negotiate relationships with other nations, that will add to our power and help I move forward politically. These type of tech's are a standard in these styles of games..