Summoning Spell book

they took it out as it was overpowered. you can only get it through researching magic now.

Rightyho - thx!

It doesn't make much sense to me that they left in the rest of the summoning spells which you can still get really quickly, and are just as overpowered.

Permanent, unlimited, nigh- unhittable rock giants at spell level 4 with no resource costs, are just as overpowered.  Even cheap summon familiar at level 2 or whatever is powerful enough to make it to mid-game without having to field troops.

Summon gave you decent creatures from level one. None of the other books get any decent summons before level 4. You could theoretically rush for it and have them in the early game, but you'd be ignoring the more useful spells to do so.

I disagree with the degree of your statement.  You can get "decent" summons at level 2 or 3. Summon familiar isn't an overpowerful unit, but it will let you deal with most creatures on the map, and take over early cities, until you get a better one. Not as good as the uber bear you could get within ten turns before, but good enough.  Even if it only lasts a couple battles, it is cheap to re-summon (cheaper than using offensive magic), and frees you from the cost of fielding troops, or having to worry about their health.  Who cares if a summons dies? You just make another one effortlessly.

The summons you get at level 4 about a third of the way through the game like the rock giant, are *game winning*, allowing you to conquer half the map while teching up your conventional troops to deal with end game.

Summoning, like most of the magic system needs completely overhauled.  Being able to summon *permanent* units with minimal research, without associated resource costs, is overpowered and takes the place of conventional troops for much of the game.

Summoned units should only last for one turn, or one battle like in most games, and have their cost adjusted accordingly.  Even at twice the price of a basic attack spell, they would still be a bargain, as a spell that does persistent damage over time to multiple troops, while simultaneously protecting you from damage. Permanent units should have to be researched and paid for with limited resources (for instance with Shards that we have little use for now), or recruited, like any other permanent unit.

I think there would be far more satisfaction from running across a rock giant you're able to "recruit" on the map with the proper research, or getting control of a resource that allows you to *build* them, rather than being able to effortlessly summon an unlimited supply of permanent godlike creatures who get a free area attack every turn.

The familiar is fine. Like you said, it's useful against most early game critters, but since it's level 2 most players aren't going to have it until turn 60 or so, so it's got a fairly limited window of usability before you start seeing things that will eat it for breakfast. The bear on the other hand was like finding two sand golem tokens in your first couple of turns; you took around eight or nine turns to get it and proceeded to dominate the map.

With rock giant if the AI is in a good mood it'll have a counter available by the time you can cast it (I usually find a company of archers works wonders). Of course if it isn't playing ball it's game winning, but then the AI varies so much at the moment equipping a peasant with a club can be game winning at points too.

I don't think summon spells should be limited. The MoM system of having an upkeep cost associated might work, but it might be sufficient simply to weaken them initially so that having them levelled is more of a factor; shunt the stats so they can't use their special abilities before level 2 or 3 for example and even though they're immediately replaceable it's going to hurt when you lose one. Only danger would be forcing the player to babysit them until they become useful.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing some extra powerful summons that are battle only in addition. Really the summoning book could do with some expanding; I only ever took it for the bear when it was available, it doesn't at present offer much that's distinguishable from the summons in the other books. Temporary allies only available in a battle would be a start, and maybe some summons which are economic rather than combat oriented.

This has not been my experience. But I have thus far played only on "normal" difficulty  while I figure it out, and I aggressively pursue summoning spells after I get a basic attack spell, as they are the best, most cost efficient use of magic in the game, and the other spells aren't very crucial.  Obviously harder difficulties and larger and larger maps will skew this, but I want to experience the baseline game while I learn the ins and outs of tech trees and rules.

I have yet to play a game doing this where I couldn't roll the majority of the map with a simple, cost effective 8 point rock giant.  The familiar is plenty good enough to handle spider swarms and bandits in the first third of the game to level up your Sov and take out a few early cities with. 

Sure, eventually you'll start running into some squads, and Sovs with similar summoning ability.  But by that time, you will have conquered so many cities with access to so many resources, and been able to build up your infrastructure to such a degree by not having to build any real armies, there's no way they can stop you. And by that time your own killer companies are rolling off the assembly line. I've yet to play a game where using free summoned units didn't feel like cheating.

I think summons should *supplement* the traditional army units that the game, resource system, economy, and research trees are built around, not *replace* them for half the game.  At the very least, the summoned units should be either nerfed a bit, or moved to a higher level, and they should have a material component cost, as well, like shards.  It makes perfect sense to need earth crystals to summon an earth creature into permanent form. 

I'd much rather have to recruit, research, or build any permanent units. Using exploration to recruit new units you couldn't really plan for, and capturing a resource that lets you build that monster, seems what the game is built around.  Summoning should work fundamentally differently.