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Magic just feels so UNmagical

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Magic just feels so UNmagical

from Elemental Forums

I know this has probably been discussed to death in other threads, usually as part of a metapost about overall game issue, but I'm in the middle of a game with a min-maxed caster sovereign (15 int, 15 "wisdom" and all spellbooks to start) and I'm getting bashed over the head CONSTANTLY how weak and stupidly unreliable magic is in Elemental.

Said caster has had pretty phenomenal luck on my current medium map on "ridiculous" difficulty...  more like ridiculously lucky.  I have 3 fire shards on turn 133 and am one more city level-up to get my fourth (just out of influence range).  This said, my uber-caster with 41.9 essence is *STILL* having problems even bringing down creeps with 20 HP!  Melting Touch which is specced at up to 120 damage is averaging in the single digits CONSTANTLY against level 1 spiders in a level 3 quest.

Work Time Fun?!?!?!

This just destroys any desire I have to play a caster sovereign.  And given that the entire PREMISE of the game is you bringing life and magic back to the world this is just so very disheartening.  I was able to basically destroy everything in my path with a min-maxed warrior sovereign.  No muss, no fuss and most importantly, no magic.

Magic needs to at least work.  A string of 3-4 misses with a purportedly powerful caster sovereign just reduces it to a very simple question...  why did I make this chump and not a super powerful melee equivalent?  I have the exact same feeling when my "up to 120 damage" Melting Touching comes off more like "Lukewarm Lovetap" or "Clammy Handshake" or the like.

elemental
27,800 views 38 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting lordkosc, reply 24

Magic doesn't feel powerful. I'd rather see magic do massive damage at much greater cost... with some decent particles, please fireballs make it look like my casters are throwing sparklers.


You can catch on fire from a sparkler!
End of lordkosc's quote

I've done it :/

 

Plus I don't really want them investing in graphics unless they have the funds to do it without hurting there development team. Graphics, even crappy ones, tend to be phenomenally expensive.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Plus I don't really want them investing in graphics unless they have the funds to do it without hurting there development team. Graphics, even crappy ones, tend to be phenomenally expensive.
End of quote

Nah particles are cheap and easy. It's just an ultra low res object being spat out of a bone that's flagged as an emitter in the engine. Assuming this engine works like every other one out there.

More to the point they made and implemented easy to use tools for it. you can get to them from the workshop menu item in the main menu. There's a mod project that's just started in the mod sub-forum for just this reason but so far they've only done two spells, fireball and melting touch and they both look amazing compared to how they were before.

 

Anyway stepping away from graphics, it's only in my last game that i've finally reached the uper echilons of the spell research tree, and i have to say i really dont think spells are lackluster anymore.... oneshot entire armies without even entering combat, we really dont need anymore power.

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Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

They have to lower the number of shards, seriously. I presently have 12 air shards and 6 fire shards (about 10 earth and a couple water but I don't have those books), in my 6 cities. When I auto resolve combat, well, it is pretty horrid for the computer.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Viperswhip, reply 28
They have to lower the number of shards, seriously. I presently have 12 air shards and 6 fire shards (about 10 earth and a couple water but I don't have those books), in my 6 cities. When I auto resolve combat, well, it is pretty horrid for the computer.
End of Viperswhip's quote

Ironic, isn't it? Usually human micromanagement of units in tactical combat is the bane of AIs - but thanks to a crazy bug, you have to autoresolve (i.e. let the AI itself handle the battle for you) to truly horrify the AI empires with your superiority.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Austinvn, reply 25
Well, the sheer randomness of the combat system is a little too much no matter who you are. I've been experimenting with different playstyles, I had a maxed-dex sovereign the other game with some absurd amount (like 130ish) of defense, and I winced every time some 15 attack bandit whacked him for 12.. it happens more often than you'd expect.

But it feels like the randomness hurts casters worse, due to limited mana. If your maxed-attack sovereign gets a bad roll and misses a 5 def enemy with his 100 attack, you can always swing again next turn, maybe you'll lose a few extra health due to the delay. If your maxed-defense sovereign gets a bad roll, you can lose a third of your health against an insultingly trivial enemy, but you can still finish him. If your caster gets a bad roll and misses a high level spell, you not only lose time and possibly health if your enemy attacks you back before you can cast again, you also lose a significant chunk of the very limited amount of total damage you can do before your mana runs out, and it doesn't take many bad rolls before suddenly you realize you can't finish this battle.

Honestly, rather than making spells into epic destroyers of armies, I'd rather see much more mana regen both in and out of combat, so a caster sovereign could practically match a melee hit-for-hit in a long battle, and repeat this performance every battle - it just seems more balanced. Misses would still be irritating, but not as crippling if you just had to wait an extra turn to get the mana back and try again. I mean, I don't want magic to lose its epicness - I wouldn't want casters turned into archers with fancier special effects - but I'd rather have a lot of sustainability (i.e. mana regen) than a little more power. What if wisdom granted mana regen in addition to the current effect?* It'd let players choose between more damage to wipe out armies with their initial mana pool (int), or the ability to cast continuously throughout every battle (wisdom).

Of course all aspects of combat, attack and defense and spells and everything, could do with a hefty dose of normalizing (i.e. making average results more common than extreme lows and highs), which would help everyone - but casters particularly, due to the reasons mentioned above (how much you have to count on those very limited spells not missing).

*Not even sure if the current stated effect of wisdom ("make spells cast for less action points") even works, but if it does, adding regen would make sense - casting more but not stronger spells lowers your mana efficiency, you'd need more mana to keep up with an int character if you focused on wisdom.
End of Austinvn's quote

I like the idea of much more mana regen in and out of combat. :thumbsup:   This would help make magic epic without 1. allowing it to destroy all armies with just a look, and 2. requiring all damage spells to require shards to do any decent damage.

I agree with Normalizing aspects of combat, attack and defense and spells etc,. and Wisdom providing more mana regen.  Why penalize magic users by being only able to cast 1/3 of a basic spell per day?  Basically, as many ways as possible for sovereigns to be built up and used successfully, and no easy exploits.  And even make "melee" sovereigns a lot more magical in the way they do things. |-)

Best regards,
Steven.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting cfehunter, reply 27

Anyway stepping away from graphics, it's only in my last game that i've finally reached the uper echilons of the spell research tree, and i have to say i really dont think spells are lackluster anymore.... oneshot entire armies without even entering combat, we really dont need anymore power.
End of cfehunter's quote

 

The upper limit of ability in end-game does not make the early and mid-game balanced. Just because end-game spells are super strong doesn't make early and mid game spells being weak not a problem. In fact it makes the problem worse, because there is just worthless and god-like with no in-between. People use this same logic to defend the current insanely weak heroes and it's just as flawed.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

I've personally never found my sovereign to be weak. Wether what i'm doing is by design or by exploitation of unforseen cohesion between abilities, well i dont know. In any case it seems to me that once you get a second channeller to a reasonable level you can play spells together and nuke just about anything aslong as you have a few meatshield units. Dont forget that it is as you put it the 'mid-game', you dont know the really powerful stuff yet.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Curious.  I've been speccing magic as well, I may run with a meatshield sovreign until the next patch.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Try the melee sovereign ONLY if you want a boring game where you steamroll everything then finally get destroyed by the odd fight where something manages to easily one-shot you (very rare but very annoying since I normally take 0 damage on each and every auto resolved fight) or spiders.

Reply #35 from Stardock Forums Top

:yes: Looking forward to Magic being the crown jewel of this game.

I hope it's high on the priority list. 

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting cfehunter, reply 19
For buffs i like deflect, it's ridiculously overpowered. It makes you immune to counter attacks soooo.

Deflect, Stab of ice, repeat.

 

In this way one of your kids (because they can have stupid mana regen) could quite easily solo a dragon.
End of cfehunter's quote

 

 

This is Primarily what i hate most.

 

I wish we had Powerful magic...The feel of the game is supposed to be being an Epic Powerful Being that as time goes on becomes more and more god like as they take more and more power...Right now we feel like a shaman.

 

Literally like a weak Shaman with a summoning stick.

 

But i still enjoy the game. I just want magic to be the main focus not a side.

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

"That's not true, the Enchant weapon and armor spells are great as well." <-- I just have to point out tht while enchantments work, in what part of the game would adding +2 ATT/DEF be a valid use of an enchantment slot vs a summon.


Everything in this game is +1-2 and yet every mechanic in this game is designed to disregard such low bonuses!? they need to make up their minds.

 

1.) Fix magic

2.) Lower damage across the board(mainly melee)

3.) Fix extreme DEF

and then a +1-2 bonus might be noticeable.

 

Just my thoughts.

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

I've been seeing some odd things happening with 1.06 and I need to pay better attention :)

I know that with an imbued champion (good ol' Janusk) and auto resolve I'm destroying fights that don't involve ranged attackers or too many that can web.  If I had another "imbuee" I'd probably be night unstoppable in auto resolve since melting touch is routinely hitting for 50+ with a single shard and 14-15 INT.  That said, I'm fairly sure I've seen the same spell still hit for over 30 in tactical combat which should be impossible given the current bug with shards.