Why Elemental doesn't have a hex grid, and why it should.

Brad Wardell on why we have squares instead of hexes.

 

"I hate hexes," says Wardell when asked what he thinks of Civ 5's big new feature. "One, I like being able to move in eight directions. I don't like only being able to move in six. Two, it makes the game feel like playing on a hardcore board tile game. I just don't like that look."

 

The "i like being able to move in eight, instead of six" is completely arbitrary;  obviously it cannot be supported by any solid argument, but it CAN be attacked with the argument that FOUR of those directions basically break the system.  It's always better to move diagonally in a "square grid" system, because you are covering MORE GROUND.  This is stupid.

From Wiki's article on Hex Grids:

The primary advantage of a hex map over a traditional square grid map is that the distance between the center of each hex cell (or hex) and the center of all six adjacent hexes is constant. By comparison, in a square grid map, the distance from the center of each square cell to the center of the four diagonal adjacent cells it shares a corner with is greater than the distance to the center of the four adjacent cells it shares an edge with. This is desirable for games in which the measurement of movement is a factor. The other advantage is the fact that neighbouring cells always share edges; there are no two cells with contact at only one point.

It's a bit ironic that Brad doesn't want the game to "feel like playing on a hardcore board tile game", given that it's definitely the most hardcore big game to get sold in probably 10 years, and given that it has the cloth map mode which feels a little boardgamey anyway.  Also, nobody knows strategy and tactics like the guys who made those hardcore board tile games he's talking about.  He should look to learn from them rather than reject them because he "doesnt like" the look.

 

In short, I'm a bit sad that Brad isn't the kind of designer who can look past his own personal preferences and figure out what is actually best for the game.

40,085 views 59 replies
Reply #1 Top

Hexes are awesome, boardgames with hexes even more.

- Classic Battletech
- HeroScape
- Twilight Imperium III

And 2 of them are not really hardcore games.

Classic PC games with hexes

- Panzer General

 

Hex for combat where range etc. matters is always better, always...

 

Reply #3 Top

To add to that list: Fantasy General is a wonderful high-fantasy strategy game.  I recommend ALL Elemental fans check it out asap!

 

Guy who uses the word "sidewards" doesn't like hexes.  More support! ;)

Reply #4 Top

To be fair, a hex grid being equidistant in any direction only matters if you're trying to represent some distance in real life. In a game especially, it doesn't actually matter how physically far you're moving because it's an arbitrary measurement anyway. Whether you move 1 unit in one direction, it doesn't matter if it's hex or square or 1 mile. It's just one unit and doesn't really affect movement or much of anything.

 

So while yes, hex may be a better representation of distance when distance if broken into discrete units of measurement... but that's hardly an argument for (or against) it.

Reply #5 Top

It's always better to move diagonally in a "square grid" system, because you are covering MORE GROUND. This is stupid.
End of quote

 

Can't argue with this.

Reply #7 Top

I saw that article yesterday and was scratching my head over Brad's first reason - the 8 directions vs. 6 directions. 

Maybe he should have taken a poll on that. :P

Reply #8 Top

As a big Disgaea fan, I really don't mind the squares.

I'm not sure why you say hexes are 'better for the game'... that seems to me as much of an opinion as you say Brad's dislike of hexes is.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting IZ-Master, reply 6
from what i read on a preview Frogboy hate them ^^
End of IZ-Master's quote

Did you even bother reading the original post?

Reply #10 Top

Yeah i much prefer hexes myself. Would be nice if they were used for tactical battles at least a la King's bounty.

Reply #11 Top

You all forgot the REAL reason why the game does not have hexes: It is far easier to program and mod with a square tile system compared to hexes. Since I assume that we all like a highly and easily modable game, it may not be the perfect decision to stick with squares, but it is the right decision.

Reply #12 Top

Elemental isn't getting an engine re-write to accomodate hexes. :P

Reply #13 Top

This argument:

 

Guy1: I hate hexes. They remind me of games I didn't enjoy.

 

Guy2: Yea? Well I love hexes. They remind me of games I enjoyed AND they're more realistic.

 

Guy1: That makes sense. I enjoy games because they are realistic AND remind me of games I don't enjoy.

 

Guy2: Good so you'll.. wait, you bitch.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 9

Quoting IZ-Master, reply 6from what i read on a preview Frogboy hate them ^^
Did you even bother reading the original post?
End of TheProgress's quote

 

ya, hence my replied  , i think it would had been more clever to said , from what i read in the OP , Frogboy hate them ^^

 

joke aside I personally prefer squares ,  game as elven legacy further fire my hate for hex

Reply #15 Top

Quoting phazonfreak, reply 11
You all forgot the REAL reason why the game does not have hexes: It is far easier to program and mod with a square tile system compared to hexes. Since I assume that we all like a highly and easily modable game, it may be not the perfect decision to stick with squares, but it is the right decision.
End of phazonfreak's quote

Eh coding a hexfield is as simple as an squarefield.

I can code you an 3d, isometric or 2d hexfield tilesystem in just 5-10 minutes. This is no joke, this is how it works nowadays in any language you can think of. Just wanted to make that clear.

I still enjoy the current squares in the game, however.

Reply #16 Top

All the benefits of hexes versus squares are dependent upon other factors being included.  The reason hexes work so well in more traditional wargames is because those wargames model stacking, flanking, frontage, force projection, etc...  The other item, as mentioned in the thread, is distance.  Which, against sagittary's statement, is EXTREMELY important for representing movement from point A to point B and not as a representation of actual distance.  Moving at a set rate at a set period but having two different distances traversed has huge implications in a game of maneuvering.  But again, Elemental has no implementation for any of those details, so it hardly matters.

I wish Elemental had hexes simply because I've played enough complex wargames that I'm used to them, and I've played enough games that don't use hexes to know they make a huge difference in immersion and representing a... more accurate picture of the environment (I'd say realistic, but Elemental is hardly a realistic game, but hexes go a long way to making more sense once you compare a square to a hex).

 

Edit:

Also hexes have a huge impact on facing (complete with two facing options which change the entire game depending on which style you use) which can't even be implemented in squares at all, but that is outside the scope of Elemental anyways.

Reply #17 Top

Personally, I think the game should use triangles.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 17
Personally, I think the game should use triangles.
End of TheProgress's quote

It does, every character is in fact standing on two triangles sandwiched together! :D

Reply #19 Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 17
Personally, I think the game should use triangles.
End of TheProgress's quote
Funny, I was thinking tesseracts might be the ticket.

Reply #20 Top

If they used circles we could move our units in 360 possible directions. Now THAT is what I call tactical.

Reply #21 Top

A lot of you are entirely missing the point by saying "I personally think X".  The point is, your individual preference isn't important, and neither should be Brad Wardell's.  He (and you) should focus entirely on what the facts are.

 

One or two of you are also making the mistake of thinking that I am factoring in "realism" for why Hexes are better.  The truth is I could care less about realism; but mechanically it is just better for the reasons I listed in my OP.

Reply #22 Top

I hate hexes....

No I really do and I don't know why, I actually might not be able to play Civ 5 due to it. Must be something wrong with my head but when I see a hex based game I just don't want to play it... I know they are better in pretty much every single way but for some reason they just piss me off! =(

Reply #23 Top

I find hexes annoying as well purely for the fact that you cannot move in a straight line and have to zig-zag around the place. Bring on octagons!

Reply #24 Top

I think it's bit too late to rewrite the game engine.

Reply #25 Top

octagons
End of quote

Eh, that will not work, you would end up with something like this:

 

Or this: