nitey47 nitey47

Champions - what's the point?

Champions - what's the point?

As with my post on Dynasties. I have a few problems with Champions the way they are currently implemented in the game.

Currently Champions are wandering heroes, that you can hire, equip, potentially marry and imblue with essence and ultimately use on quests for your faction.

However, the cost for these units is currently prohibitive considering their benefits.

First, from a cost standpoint. Each hero requires gildar to recruit. Any hero beyond a 1st level champion costs usually too much to recruit and a party of them is too expensive for the game economy. Cost to equip a single champion, currently can be exorbitant. Consider, equipping a 1st level champion with a short sword, leather cuirass, leather armlets, leather helm and leather leg greaves will cost you an additional 360 gildar. A single soldier with the same equipment costs 23 gildar. So the question you need to ask yourself is a single champion worth 15.5 soldiers?  Obviously, there is a cost disconnect between the shop value of common equipment and it's production equivalent which needs to be addressed.

Second, each champion can be imbued with essense to make them magic users. However, with the current magic system, the sovereigns cost in permanent mana loss compared to the minor benefit you get from the champion having magical use is of questionable value. In most cases, it seems like it would be better to 'grow your own channellers' using the dynasty system rather than impart some of your sovereigns essence on a champion. And in a real sense, a champion functions just fine without it. However, I will admit that if you can't get your dynasty started quickly enough, it's sometimes worth the cost to have another magic using champion.

Third, currently you can marry champions. However, if you are a male sovereign it is much harder to find a female champion than it is to find a male one. Also, it doesn't seem to make any difference in the game if your spouse is beautiful or ugly, strong or weak, a champion imbued with magic. Ideally at some point, the attributes of your spouse will make a difference, however, that's a topic for another time. Currently in the game, you do seem to need to hire the first opposite sex champion you find and marry them.

Forth, the final real advantage is that champions to lead armies, can go on quests, uncover special adventuring locations and use special equipment. Again, to use them in this capacity requires funding for equipment (and as creatures become more powerful, more expensive equipment). Your hope is that through experience and the purchased equipment, they become a force on the battlefield. However, often parties, squads or companies of normal soldiers are more effective at a much lower cost. If you invest your champion with magic and increase their essense at the cost of not increasing their normal attributes (like strength, health, combat speed) it can allow for some specialize attacks, but often the hero is then weak during physical confrontation.  

Fifth, there is also some real value in that champions have a 'profession' and can add some marginal value to your faction simply by parking them sans equipment in a city to add bonuses to your kingdom or empire. Again, in this case, hiring a 1st level hero gives the same benefit as spending more gildar for a higher level one. In this case, champions are worth their cost, but they are really more of a specialist not really a 'hero' in the sense of the word.

Summation:

Shop values for common equipment needs to be massively decreased, not increased. You should be able to outfit your champion in common equipment for not much (or any more) than it costs to outfit a single soldier. However, the shop should carry much more 'uncommon' equipment that is not available to the common soldier class.

Some NPCs should already be channellers and should cost more. Those that are, should be limited to one/two spell books so that you should hire ones that align to books that your Sovereign already knows (or you hope to acquire through research). This will add more interest to the game. If not magic, then give each a special attack or defensive feature much like what some monsters have.

Cost of higher level NPCs needs to come down by a significant amount AND they (all levels of champions) need to come equipped with better equipment making them worth the expense in gildar.

There needs to be an equal amount of male and female champions in the game.

Professional skills should increase over time. This makes the specialization a more valuable resource and consquently more valuable if traded to another faction during the game.

Champions should be potential difference makers in the game. Their initial cost should be an investment in that potential. I also believe that champions should require a on going wage much the same way as soldiers do.

Those are my thoughts on Champions.

 

43,506 views 65 replies
Reply #51 Top

I wanted to bump this and echo the OP's concerns.  Champs seem woefully underpowered for the cost going out. Between the money spent on hiring then quipping better results can be had with other means.

 

R,

Nacho

 

Reply #52 Top

I don't know. Add flavour.

The game feel somewhat like Mount & Blade wen you army with a bunch of archers, dukes and "named's" (champions)  destroy other army and your champions win levels.  And this is what champios are for me, people with a name that level with you, that you can equip, and you will lament if die.

 

Reply #53 Top

Quoting Lord, reply 1
Hm... at least consider the hero that gives you 1 gildar per turn, other gives 20% food bonus to the city he station in (can be difference between growing city or not) , there are some other advantages.

Plus heroes can use equipment.
End of Lord's quote

This reminds me that the only way to get xp (that I know of) is on battle. If you station your hero in the city to get the bonus, he will never level up, which I think it's unfair.

Reply #54 Top

Maybe there could be a building that can be built in the city and that would allow stationed heroes to gain 1xp per turn. Should help a bit. 1xp ain't much to unbalance anything it IMO.

Reply #55 Top

I usually only end up imbuing one champion.  The rest I give those potions that add 0.5 essence to.  That way when they level up you can increase their essence skill.  In my last game I probably found 20 of those potions and had a small army of spellcasters destroying armies with their blizzard skill.  Of course I also found 2 champions who already came with the channeler skill, though I think that may have been a bug.  She was a level 1 hero that started with 17 essence and it regenerated during battle.

Reply #56 Top

Found an item in my last game that gives essence..   You can use the potion instead of imbuing...  JFY.  

Reply #57 Top

Quoting Wexmajor, reply 49




That's not what a fantasy game is about, that is not why I pre-ordered this game. I was promised heroes, I want heroes, not the same crap I could get in Civ 4.
End of Wexmajor's quote

Fair enough.  That can be largely fixed with a mod right now, if you don't feel like waiting, where shop prices/weapon stats (I think I saw stats are tweakable, but i dunno) are tweaked to stack on the power.  Or the infinate bling 'sploit.  I personally prefer it the way it currently is, tho.  Inevitably, some people who bought the game will be happy and some not, we'll just have to wait out the patches and see what SD decides (and mod away what we dislike).

Reply #58 Top

I agree with your post 100%, hero in elemental compare to other game isn't really worth that much, I almost never equip them at all since they can easily get killed, I mean a Lv3 monster killing 8 hero party is just......... Fully equipping them each cost over 300 gold which in turn I can hire over ten more replacement hero....

only reason I hire hero in the first place would just be for their +1 gold, tech, knowledge, 20% food and ect. not much of a hero in any sense.

I won't brother giving them essence either since they get kill fast...not to mention that magic in this game is too weak, miss to much and not much of any use

Reply #59 Top

Something that just occurred to me about Champions as I was playing just now - what's the point of them having a Charisma rating? If Charisma is only good for making champions less expensive to hire, isn't it pointless for any character other than a Sovereign having Charisma?

Reply #60 Top

I just use them for role playing.  I have them lead an army of regular units every time, like in Total War.  Sure it doesn't do much good, but at least your stacks of faceless pesants have a face now!

Reply #61 Top

If I want to role-play I can rename my faceless peasants - and that's free. Beats the heck out of recruiting a Champion for 100 gilder that I could have spent on a squad of longbowmen.

Reply #62 Top



Some NPCs should already be channellers and should cost more. Those that are, should be limited to one/two spell books so that you should hire ones that align to books that your Sovereign already knows (or you hope to acquire through research). This will add more interest to the game. If not magic, then give each a special attack or defensive feature much like what some monsters have.


End of quote

 

 

I agree on you about this one, I know channelizes suppose to be rare and stuff, but it doesn't mean they all have to be or want to be sovereign.

some would like peaceful or more relaxing role or just go adventuring and see the world.

 

And a lot of the hero's description doesn't make sense. many of them say they can use magic and have high int but 0 mana and no attacks.....

Reply #63 Top

All interesting ideas. But how about we use them in a more creative/sinister way? For example evil factions can use some special items to capture heroes to extract exp/loot/essence.