Spell damage still doesn't work right.

from Elemental Forums

I really like so many aspects of this game but this one thing is killing me...

I have three air shards.  The damge of my lightning attack spell should therefore be tripple my Int.  My Int is 19.  The description of the spell says that the max damage for the spell is 72 (not sure why it isn't 57, but there is a lot of fuzzy math happening behind the scenes so I'm probably getting some kind of percentage bump somewhere I'm not aware of.  Anyhoo, I cast my spell at an ogre with 57 life, 187 attack and 7 defence.  If the spell works as advertised I should be doing an average of about 25-32 damage.  More than enough to take said ogre down before he comes and crushes me.  Right?  Wrong.  Spell never does double digits.  I had two spell casters test it out, both with 19 Int.  They cast 5 spells each.  Did an average of 5 points each casting (when it hit, which it didn't always).  Now keep in mind that burned through 15 mana each.  15 turns to get that back.  Reloaded the game and had the two fire bows at the ogre.  One had a 6 attack the other a 12.  Ended up doing about the same, with the 12 attack bow-caster actually doing better that she did with her spells.

This cannot be the way it's supposed to work.

As a side note I tried a third time but this time when about casting the "melting" spell that does double your Int in damage naturally.  With no shards (I had no fire shards) the spell was consistantly in the double digits.  I don't think the shards are having any effect at all on the spell damage output.

This should be a pretty simple thing for you folks to test.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding something--maybe I'm high on computer fumes--but this is driving me crazy.

And before people tell me how "powerful" spell casting is, you obviously haven't played late game when you are swarmed with creatures that have 50+ hit points and 100+ attack values.  And when I say swarms, I mean for or five in a stack and six or seven stacks all around your cities.  Yes I guess I could just throw huge numbers of sacraficial armies at them and have them chewed up as they do damage, but what is the point of killing yourself to collect shards if they have no effect outside of giving you a small essence bump?

PLEASE someone from Stardock let me know if I'm doing something wrong or if I'm on to something and the shard damage system just isn't working.

 

As a side note, I keep seeing Wisdom mentioned as affecting spell casting speed and mana regen...where is your Wisdom, how can you see it and how can you make it higher?  Can't find it anywhere...

 

elemental
6,206 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

yeah there is some problem into magic scaling

 

same with archers, i dont feel like they are scaling correctly

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

At this point, I'm thinking of just putting EWOM aside and wait for 6 months. I'm not going to ask for a refund, as i consider $$ paid as a tax/investment for the future of TBS games.

But EWOM is clearly not ready. Was Galciv2 so bad when it was released? I don't think so. To be fair, Galciv2 was a sequel.. but stilll... 

 

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I have three air shards. The damge of my lightning attack spell should therefore be tripple my Int. My Int is 19. The description of the spell says that the max damage for the spell is 72 (not sure why it isn't 57, but there is a lot of fuzzy math happening behind the scenes so I'm probably getting some kind of percentage bump somewhere I'm not aware of. Anyhoo, I cast my spell at an ogre with 57 life, 187 attack and 7 defence. If the spell works as advertised I should be doing an average of about 25-32 damage. More than enough to take said ogre down before he comes and crushes me. Right? Wrong. Spell never does double digits. I had two spell casters test it out, both with 19 Int. They cast 5 spells each. Did an average of 5 points each casting (when it hit, which it didn't always). Now keep in mind that burned through 15 mana each. 15 turns to get that back. Reloaded the game and had the two fire bows at the ogre. One had a 6 attack the other a 12. Ended up doing about the same, with the 12 attack bow-caster actually doing better that she did with her spells.
End of quote

I think what likely happens is that with a shard bonus, the game doesn't roll 0 to (int*shards), it rolls 0 to int, modifies by the opponent's armor roll, and then multiplies it by shard count. So You would constantly be rolling 0 to 19, subtracting the defense roll, and then multiplying for the shard bonus. This would rather drastically reduce the average damage of the spell.. 5 average still seems pretty low, but I think this is the most likely explanation for how the damage is calculated.

The other possibility is that the ogre always gets a max armor roll vs your spell. There are damage types in the game and armor that's good against a certain damage type always gets a guaranteed max defense roll. In this case you'd be rolling 0-12, so that the 5 average makes even more sense.

You could try finding that specific ogre in the creature XML (at work so can't look) and see if it has any magic resist thing attached to it.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I understand what you're saying, but still, come on, that damage is way too low.  Magic damage shouldn't be so hard to come by when damage from bows and other weapons seem to be so far superior at this point.  Keep in mind, shooting off that bow doesn't cost me three turns of mana regen, the spell does.  It SHOULD be better.

Love to hear from a dev on this.

Note that I love most of the rest of the game.  I know a lot of people are upset about the state of the game, but most of it seems functional to me, except for spells and champions.  I have yet to see any of the "special traits" that the previews mention that different kinds of champions are supposed to have when they level up.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm not saying the system is fine as is.. was just trying to make sense of the numbers :P I've been pitching in plenty of threads that call for a rebalancing of magic damage, so I'm with you.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Haha, I too have been trying to make a successful build for a magic user. I've min-maxed all of the relevant stats and took 3 or 4 disabilities to make sure I have every relevant magic bonus you can get while completely disregarding all other aspects of my character. Theoretically it's the most powerful combat spell caster build you can make.

In real combat however, he's rather unimpressive, the only useful combat spell is the "melting" one, and I don't exactly have my enemies shaking in their boots.

I find it amusing that in a world where magic has become so rare and coveted, my enemies take one look at my special powers and realize they don't really need magic to kick my ass, they have pointy sticks and big clubs that are way more practical and effective. I might as well go out there  and try to bedazzle them with balloon animals or something.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 3

I think what likely happens is that with a shard bonus, the game doesn't roll 0 to (int*shards), it rolls 0 to int, modifies by the opponent's armor roll, and then multiplies it by shard count. So You would constantly be rolling 0 to 19, subtracting the defense roll, and then multiplying for the shard bonus.
End of Annatar11's quote

 

i thought the same but the in game tests and the op suggest thjis is not the case

it also appear to be some innate resistance or something

 

try with aoe on large groups which is a good test

you nearly never get a 2 digit dmg even with 20 int

 

maybe there is something we ignore or maybe terrain defense reduce  % the dmg roll dunno

 

 

 

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Yep, the Magic in Elemental is underwhelming. I wanted to see people quaking in their boots from magic, similar to HOMM high level spells.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

There is no way some hidden resistance is reducing the damage of spells from a max of 72 down to single digits - on practically everything.  At least, it shouldn't...

Frogboy?  Anyone?

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Thank you for the feedback Shryke.

 

We definitely understand where you're coming from, and normalizing magic damage across the board is high on our list of things to do.  In the coming weeks we're going to be looking at separating the hit roll (enemy has a chance to resist) and the damage roll for spells and giving spells a damage range instead of simply a 0 - max damage roll.  We realize it can be especially frustrating and random to have your spells hit for near their minimum damage.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LikeTheWhirlwind, reply 10
Thank you for the feedback Shryke.

We definitely understand where you're coming from, and normalizing magic damage across the board is high on our list of things to do.  In the coming weeks we're going to be looking at separating the hit roll (enemy has a chance to resist) and the damage roll for spells and giving spells a damage range instead of simply a 0 - max damage roll.  We realize it can be especially frustrating and random to have your spells hit for near their minimum damage.
End of LikeTheWhirlwind's quote

Any chance of that happening with weapons too? I like how armor works, with it providing a guaranteed max roll against damage it's strong to and a random roll for anything else, but battles are slowed down too much by having that roll applied to the attacker too.

What would the hit roll for magic be based off of? INT vs INT?

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

It is interesting to note that when you start a tactical battle then let it auto-resolve the combat log shows what the spell damages should be.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Thanks for the feedback.  I look forward to the tweeks.  :)

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LikeTheWhirlwind, reply 10
Thank you for the feedback Shryke.

 

We definitely understand where you're coming from, and normalizing magic damage across the board is high on our list of things to do.  In the coming weeks we're going to be looking at separating the hit roll (enemy has a chance to resist) and the damage roll for spells and giving spells a damage range instead of simply a 0 - max damage roll.  We realize it can be especially frustrating and random to have your spells hit for near their minimum damage.
End of LikeTheWhirlwind's quote

 

EXCELLENT!!  

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LikeTheWhirlwind, reply 10
Thank you for the feedback Shryke.

 

We definitely understand where you're coming from, and normalizing magic damage across the board is high on our list of things to do.  In the coming weeks we're going to be looking at separating the hit roll (enemy has a chance to resist) and the damage roll for spells and giving spells a damage range instead of simply a 0 - max damage roll.  We realize it can be especially frustrating and random to have your spells hit for near their minimum damage.
End of LikeTheWhirlwind's quote

Please, please, please, please, do this to weapon damage too. With a high attack you also have a high damage ratio. Where are easy hitting weapons that do few damage ? And the reverse (fewer chance to hit, but lot of damage) ?

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 15

Quoting LikeTheWhirlwind, reply 10Thank you for the feedback Shryke.

 

We definitely understand where you're coming from, and normalizing magic damage across the board is high on our list of things to do.  In the coming weeks we're going to be looking at separating the hit roll (enemy has a chance to resist) and the damage roll for spells and giving spells a damage range instead of simply a 0 - max damage roll.  We realize it can be especially frustrating and random to have your spells hit for near their minimum damage.

Please, please, please, please, do this to weapon damage too. With a high attack you also have a high damage ratio. Where are easy hitting weapons that do few damage ? And the reverse (fewer chance to hit, but lot of damage) ?
End of vieuxchat's quote

i fully agree. but at this stage i will take what they can give. Magic first. 

 

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lavitage, reply 11

Quoting LikeTheWhirlwind, reply 10Thank you for the feedback Shryke.

We definitely understand where you're coming from, and normalizing magic damage across the board is high on our list of things to do.  In the coming weeks we're going to be looking at separating the hit roll (enemy has a chance to resist) and the damage roll for spells and giving spells a damage range instead of simply a 0 - max damage roll.  We realize it can be especially frustrating and random to have your spells hit for near their minimum damage.

Any chance of that happening with weapons too? I like how armor works, with it providing a guaranteed max roll against damage it's strong to and a random roll for anything else, but battles are slowed down too much by having that roll applied to the attacker too.

What would the hit roll for magic be based off of? INT vs INT?
End of Lavitage's quote

How about the hit roll for magic just be based on the spell?

 

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Seriously though, in the future, consider my suggestion of having separate physical and magical resistance stats! It would make the game a whole lot more balanced!

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting AlixeniusTheGreat, reply 18
Seriously though, in the future, consider my suggestion of having separate physical and magical resistance stats! It would make the game a whole lot more balanced!
End of AlixeniusTheGreat's quote

Like in MOM?

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Even if you don't have seperate resistances, the pure def number of a unit should be greatly reduced in some way to differentiate magic vs physical and make magic more useful.  Cut it in half, third, quarter - something.

Or incorporate sov level, which doesn't seem to be used for anything right now.  Like maybe sov's level could reduce defense by 5 or 10 per level.  If it was 5, a lvl 5 sovereign would reduce armor effectiveness vs spells by 25, so only really uber units would have noticeable defense vs spells cast by a seasoned sov, which is more like how it should be.  Sov magic should be vaporizing regular chumps.

Don't want to just give that away?  Fine, as stated by me and others elsewhere, sov leveling is pitifully simplistic now.  You *could* give sov's options on more abilities as they level.  One ability could be "spell penetration" or something that's a skill you can build up to reduce enemy "resistance" to spells -and make it work just like described above with the skill tie-in.  That way melee based sovs (who should have their own type of uber melee skills available) aren't necessary getting casting perks that caster sovs would get.

This game is way too simplistic in a lot of ways.  Some elements simply lack creativity or imagination and don't leverage stuff that exists in the game already like any sensible RPG or RPG inspired game would.

 

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm pretty sure this will be fixed in a couple of weeks, and ''coming back in 6 months'' is overreacting on the current state of the game ^^

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Voqar, reply 20
Even if you don't have seperate resistances, the pure def number of a unit should be greatly reduced in some way to differentiate magic vs physical and make magic more useful.  Cut it in half, third, quarter - something.

Or incorporate sov level, which doesn't seem to be used for anything right now.  Like maybe sov's level could reduce defense by 5 or 10 per level.  If it was 5, a lvl 5 sovereign would reduce armor effectiveness vs spells by 25, so only really uber units would have noticeable defense vs spells cast by a seasoned sov, which is more like how it should be.  Sov magic should be vaporizing regular chumps.

Don't want to just give that away?  Fine, as stated by me and others elsewhere, sov leveling is pitifully simplistic now.  You *could* give sov's options on more abilities as they level.  One ability could be "spell penetration" or something that's a skill you can build up to reduce enemy "resistance" to spells -and make it work just like described above with the skill tie-in.  That way melee based sovs (who should have their own type of uber melee skills available) aren't necessary getting casting perks that caster sovs would get.

This game is way too simplistic in a lot of ways.  Some elements simply lack creativity or imagination and don't leverage stuff that exists in the game already like any sensible RPG or RPG inspired game would.

 
End of Voqar's quote

I agree that Sovs atm are way, way to weak. You lvl up to basically boost a stat, and it's often Essence. 

Sovs across the board need way more HP. Higher dmg, high chance of critical or something like that, field teleportation, etc.

You're a sovereign. YOu don't mess with a Sovereign, and that goes for both sides.