Thoughts and ideas on the adventure tech

If #1 is implemented ... it NEEDS TO BE RETROACTIVE!!!!

#2 ... Possible, but only certain stats and traits, for instance completing the "Save the Fencing Master" quest could grant the "Fencing Mastery" tech ... allowing champions to buy "Fencer" or "Fencing Master" upon level up.

#3 ... possibly equipment linked to techs, but it might be better if the level of "fancy items/ armor" you can buy in the store depends on your Adventuring tech level. And there would still be plenty of items non-attainable in this way. (but plenty that ARE ... that are obv better than their bland warfare counterpart)

I like the idea of Adventure techs that boost your Sov and champions.

I don't think that boosting levelups is the right way to go, particularly because of the Magic techs that already boost essence.

Suppose I have elemental techs that boost levelups by 20% and then I get another bonus 20% essence... my 3 point increase in Essence becomes 3.6 from the first effect, and then becomes 4.32 with the second.

Though I guess we could make it so that it only worked for physical stats: strength, dexterity, constitution?

The other way to go would just be to mimic the channel tech (that boosts essence) directly; have an adventuring tech that boosts strength by 10%, another for dex, another for constitution.

I think more powerful items should come from quests - magical armor and the like.

I could see a tech though where the effect of the tech was to start a quest chain that led to a powerful artifact.  It could be a Refined tech, that could be researched multiple times.

Similarly, a tech could trigger a quest chain that leads to a special ability gain, like Fencing Master or Lifestealer or similar.  [These could be handled through a 1-shot consumable item; drinking this potion makes you part-demon, which gives fire resistance and life stealing abilities.]

Well, I personally think that your HP should depend on 1/5 your constitution multiplied by your level

similarly, your base essence score should be 1/10 your intelligence  multiplied by your level

obviously base essence would equal current essence + used essence (zero sum) ... while extra essence (gained other than level up) wouldn't be counted.

In this way essence is still permanently spent ... but the deciding factor  is intelligence (a permanent stat that remains EVEN if you spend all your essence) rather than putting points "into essence."

i like the ideas here, you guys bring up some things i haven't thought of.  i think we can agree though, that adventuring tech as it is, offers nothing really.  i am curious though, if the devs have more stuff implemented that they are not sharing.

i do like scooters idea of boosting stats by percentages.  this might work out easier than my idea of increasing general stats. the only things i see is that you would have to generalize your champions instead of specialize.  i may choose to buff the strength attrib by 30 percent over 3 tech upgrades, but this means i will have really buff wizards walking around too.  i think more specialization in champs should be the goal.

I disagree; its lame when an archmage hero is easily assassinated in the first round because they have low defense and con.  Its fine for them to be weak in melee, but defense and con don't just effect melee, they are also needed to stop them from instantly dying to magical attacks (which wizards should be resistant against!) or bowfire.

I think gaining a level should always make you a little better at everything; or at minimum more hit points.

I think something like health = constitution + constitution/10 per level.

Another thought:

Bodyguards tech for adventurers; lets them be "merged" with a party-size unit.

100% agree on an adventure tech overhaul, as is adventure tech is very limited and not extremely enticing

however,
Specializing is authentic, you don't see Wizards with high str and constitution they are always high int and dex....extremely strong spells but very frail in melee combat

something for warriors, they have high str, low dex, high constitution, low int...devastating at dealing and absorbing damage but useless unless they get in close

without specialization everything becomes generic and there is no weakness or strength to anything, its just a matter of who has leveled up more and become stronger

Agree w/ Bodyguards ... but are we sure this should be an Adventurer tech?

and I like a bit of specialization + Higher Levels should most always be stronger.

Thus ... little perks the higher up you go.

Things like Max HP being Constitution + (Con/5) * level  would help this a lot.

Health depending on level would be way better, agreed. Essence, though.. imo it shouldn't be affected by Int or Wis. I see it more like potential/inborn ability to wield magic. That is, drooling moron could still have high essence. Int is better if it just modifies some spells' effectiveness, like finesse/thought behind the magical power. If Wis is here to stay, it would be better if it limited max. essence use/day, so you can have more essence than  you can use (and then burn it away for imbuing/powerful spells etc). Though I'd also rename Wis to Willpower.

That's somewhat off topic though

I like the idea of Adventuring giving specialization. What I'd like to see is something similar to Fallout's perks. Every nth level sovereign/champs get a perk point, or possibly points, that can be used to train perks. The perks (or some of them) are unlocked via Adventuring research. The perks could also have a stat requirements. The perks themselves could grant abilities, stat bonuses etc.

But that seems a bit too much.

Adventuring could also unlock adventuring-related items, like healing potions (and other consumables) and view range improvement stuff (telescope or such).

i guess the way i see it, is that really the adventuring tech should for the most part affect adventurers.  i think that most of all the champ and sov upgrades should come from here.  i also agree with bdmoore, i think that when building characters you need tradeoffs, this way you can get champs to work together for greater effect.  put a wizard, 2 fighters and a thief together or something.  this is where the strategy comes in, being the guy getting attacked by those, you would have to find a weakness and exploit i, using your own combo of champs.

Nah. If its retroactive it would remove the reason to getting it sooner rather than later. Why bother giving up warfare or civ, that has immediate wide spread benefits for something that will have the exact same thing no matter when i research it?

If its not retroactive it just encourages Front-loading.

Think about Endurance in Morrowind ... the ONLY improvements from Morrowind -> Oblivion was the fact that HP increases were retroactively added + streamlined enchanting (everything else was a downgrade)

Non-retroactive additions is just ANNOYING (although I agree that its playable and do-able)

Ah ... the fact that its a tech ...

Opportunity Cost.

But yea, the tech is slightly more feasible being non-retroactive ... while Essence and HP not so much

I suppose "base essence" could be (Wisdom/10 + Intelligence/10)/2 + Starting X stat ... if you want it to be less tied to Intelligence.

Whether starting essence is = to level 1 Wisdom or level 1 Intelligence ... perhaps the average of Int and Wis would make the best Essence gain modifier. (that way its harder to invest in ... being practically 4x harder to raise than max HP)

Of course ... essence does A LOT more than HP

and both should be the mark of a high level Champion.

So your first few levels, no matter what you'll only gain 1 or 2 essence per level ... and 2-4 HP per level. (assuming scores of at least 10 in all stats)

Hmm ... perhaps after a certain Constitution score is reached you get a slight amount of HP regen? Like +0.5 HP per combat turn per 20 constitution?

I wanted to throw some ideas out there, not being in the beta.  I made a long thread about it earlier, but some ideas for techs would be based on the Master Quest victory condition.  In other words, techs would benefit the player towards winning by the Master Quest condition.  For example:

As stated above, perhaps unique Adventuring Champion abilities.  For example, in Warfare, research high enough and get techs for abilities that increase stats, and whatnot.  Research Magic, get abilities that boost mana regen, etc.  Research Adventure, get techs for higher combat speed?  Survivability?  (Counter: stronger retaliation; Endurance: 1 health remaining from a killing blow), but special and Adventure tree unique abilities that help Champions become more useful, efficient, stronger, and faster, and last longer.

I imagine to complete the Master Quest, it would require high movement, strong/enduring champions, champions, dungeon delving.  So perhaps, the techs in the Adventure tree could reflect that:

High movement: Techs to increase overland movement, allow movement into opponent's territory to access their dungeons (world Adventuring?), etc

Strong/Enduring Champions: Techs to give abilities, boosts to Champions

Champions: Techs to decrease cost and increase number of Champions under you (maybe through guilds?)

Dungeon Delving: Unique dungeons only the most foolhardy and brave adventurers would dare seek, with stronger monsters and more unique equips.

Briefly, the guild idea was to allow an pure Adventuring player to go without a city and survive, where since a player needs research points, perhaps they could build a guild on a library or whatever, or near one, and it generates research for the player.  Furthermore, the guilds have a purpose in that if you bring a Champion to them, you can train them to get a unique Adventuring ability.  For example, a Doctor's Guild or whatever you might be able to train to give a Champion, any Champion who trains there, for X turns and maybe some gildar, the ability of a regen aura or heal ability.  Higher techs unlock more guilds and the longer a guild survives and generates Champions with abilities, the higher the prestige, which may lead to people defecting from opponent cities and very occasionally, generating a free Champion for you at that guild.

I agree that bonuses would be retroactive.  Which is why a "10% health bonus to heroes" or similar is easy; it doesn't give a bonus to whatever health they have when you research the tech, it is a global modifier that lasts forever.  If your hero had 12 health when you research it, they'll have 13.12.  If they later gain +3 health, then they'll have 16.5.  The 10% is a modifier applied to the base, and the game still tracks the base.

The advantage of researching it first is that it boosts your stuff now.  Same with any other tech; if I research a warfare tech now vs later, the effect is the same, the difference is that if I research it now I get the benefits immediately.

Agree that these things (including bodyguards) make sense in Adventuring in that Adventuring should be about boosting champions.

A possibility with wisdom/willpower; have it effect magical resistance, and mana recovery rate.   Eg: mana recovery rate is wisdom/10 per turn.

health would be fine to increase by 10%, but anything else i disagree on.  i would get frustrated very quickly if i had to basically decide if i want ALL of my heroes in the game to be spellcasters or warriors.  because to effectively use this i would have to plan my entire kingdom around a certain ethos.  every champ would become generic super wizard, or generic super fighter. 

Just a hp boost would be reasonable.  If ranged units were toned down, this would help.

My problem is that it seems a waste of time to try to develop a champion for combat, because they're going to be rapidly outclassed by a party/squad of grunts, and because of the poor scaling of damage vs hit points (damage so high that alpha strikes are crazy).

As I've stated elsewhere, its totally whacked that three 5/2 grunts in a party are as good as a 15/6 monster.  Instead, they should just use their level 5 attacks more times against the 6 defense, and they should lose members (temporarily - for the combat duration, not their max at full health) as they take damage.

If a melee champion were actually scary, then it would be worth investing in strength/dex.

Look here now ... the ORIGINAL IDEA was to have extra points for level up.

That would allow for specialization.

The weakness of that, ofcourse, was the assumption that there are ALREADY techs that increase essence by itself.

1. Essence and HP should automatically rise at each level up

2. These "points" gained by Adventurer tech can be used on Con, Dex, Str, Int, Wis, or Char

yep, tasunke i agree with your assessment.  i think that is the way it should go.  but by raising con you would raise your HP right?  or by raising wisdom, perhaps your mana as well?

Yes.

The amount of HP that increases on level-up (applied retroactively) would be tied to Constitution

and

The amount of Essence ... ditto ... with either Wisdom, Intelligence, or both

in traditional rpgs your HP gain per level is based on your Con modifier, so the more Con you have the more HP your hero gains on a level up

Where as Cha usually gives you better modifiers in negotiations and better prices in stores (currently it just gives better prices when hiring heroes). But it could also be used to modify diplomatic capital production thus giving the bonus to negotiations

Wis is traditionally common sense and divine might but since you play as a wizard and not a cleric i don't see wisdom as being potentially useful to your hero, but it could be used to augment healing and regeneration of HP per turn?

Int traditionally effects how powerful a spell you can learn and how many spells you can cast so essence could just be tied into Int and spell research could be modified so that you must reach a certain level of Int to cast the more powerful spells...and since I haven't seen a use for the magic shards as of yet they could reduce the level requirement needed for the spells tied to their affinity (This way you wouldn't be forced to spend your levels ups on both Int and Essence just to be a decent spell caster)

Str and Dex are already being used in their traditional roles so no input for them

so your saying that you should gain HP and essence at level up PLUS whatever you get from increasing your stats?

edit for clarification:  this reply was intended to go to tasunke. you beat me to the punch BD lol

I'm saying it should be based solely on stats, no free HP or anything upon a level up

HP per level tied to your Con modifier
Essence tied to your Int Modifier

ect

i think that int should be how much you know, and wis should be how powerful you are.  to me wisdom is how powerful your will is, and that translates to your strength of spirit.  so Wis should give you more mana.

if Wis controls how much mana then Int should effect regeneration per turn

No.

Intelligence = spell power

Wisdom = regeneration

... so far normal

starting essence = ??? (has been starting Int, has been starting Wis)

I'd suggest ((Int/10+Wis/10)/2 * level) + Starting Essence = base essence

basically current essence + spent essence = base essence

• Constitution (CON): Constitution is a term which encompasses the character's physique, toughness, health and resistance to disease and poison. The higher a character's Constitution, the more hit points that character will have. Constitution also is important for Fortitude saves, the Concentration skill, and fatigue-based general checks. Constitution also determines the duration of a barbarian's rage. Unlike the other ability scores, which render the character unconscious or immobile when they hit 0, having 0 Constitution is fatal.
• Intelligence (INT): Intelligence is similar to IQ, but also includes mnemonic ability, reasoning and learning ability outside those measured by the written word. Intelligence dictates the number of languages a character can learn, and it influences the number of spells a preparation-based arcane spellcaster (like a Wizard) may cast per day, and the effectiveness of said spells. It also affects how many skill points a character gains per level, the Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft skills, and bardic knowledge checks.
• Wisdom (WIS): Wisdom is a composite term for the characters enlightenment, judgement, wile, willpower and intuitiveness. Wisdom influences the number of spells a divine spellcaster (like clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can cast per day, and the effectiveness of said spells

the traditional roles as i stated