TheProgress TheProgress

[suggestions] Magic system / spell research revamp (plus quests) !

[suggestions] Magic system / spell research revamp (plus quests) !

Oh my, so much text so little time.

Frogboy was asking for some specific suggestions regarding the magic system in another thread, so here goes.

 

Sovereign creation:

Right now while creating my sovereign, I get no clear indication on the spell books. There is no information on their purpose, or how significant / insignificant it is to choose a spell book. Spell books should probably be given their own separate page on the sovereign creation screen to outline just exactly their purpose is. Similarly to MoM, players should be able to dictate the number of spell book volumes they wish to have from the start (see the spell book volume section below for more info).

 

Importance of unique spell book spells:

Spell books should be significant, game-altering objects. Choosing the fire spell book rather than the earth spell book needs to directly change how the game ends up being played. Each spell book needs to provided possible access to original and unique spells to that book - spells that provide the same function but operate under different names shouldn't start appearing in all spell books. An example of what shouldn't end up happening: Earthquake (earth spell, slows down enemies), Gusting Winds (air spell, slows down enemies), Icy Ground (water spell, slows down enemies), Heat Haze (fire spell, slows down enemies).

 

Spell book GUI:

As I said above, spell books need to provide original spells - not spells cloned from other books to be then used new names. So if the spell books are to be each so unique, there needs to be a clear way of access the spells from each spell book - and seeing what spell books you have access to. The magic page then logically needs a massive GUI revamp: Either split the existing spell book into sections (similarly to MoM / HoMM) or better yet display a bookshelf containing the spell books you've found so far. Clicking on the binding of a book would expand it to show the player what spells they current have access to. It might be a wise idea to have the first page include some sort of introduction explaining the "mind set" of the book (used mainly for evil purposes? dispelling / protecting against magic? etc). In the interest of convenience, it would be nice to save the last page being viewed - so that when the player goes to re-open the book, he / she is brought to the same page.

 

  Finding spell books & spell book volumes:

So if spell books are to be so unique, game changing and important, then clearly they need be acquired in a far more exciting and dangerous way than just being "researched". Therefor spell books should be in no-way acquirable through research. Spell books need to become physical items that can only be found through conquering enemy civilizations, killing enemy sovereigns (loot) or finding them through goodie huts / quests.

In order to prevent all civilizations from having the exact same magic, spell books need to be split into volumes. To avoid overwhelming the player, this system would be extremely simple (but effective). Using the bookshelf concept from earlier, each spell book would simply expand in width upon finding another related volume rather than actually adding another book to the shelf. On an important note, volumes would not be numbered, (ie, the player would not find volumes I, II, V) but instead would simply be greeted with the message "You've found another spell book volume for _____ further increasing your potential knowledge of ____ magic".

So how would spell volumes somehow prevent all civilizations from getting access to all of the same magic you ask? Quite easily since spell book volumes will be limited. As said before, sovereigns need to be customizable with the desired number of starting volumes of a specific spell book. Sovereigns shouldn't be able to start will all volumes ideally (for example if the fire spell book consists of 6 volumes, the sovereign should be limited to at most 3 during customization). Upon starting a new game and creating the world, X number of spell book volumes will be placed throughout the world for each spell book where X will be calculated (based on the # of starting sovereigns) to provide only 25% - 50% of the starting sovereigns access to an entire spell book's set of volumes. Of course that doesn't mean that 25% - 50% of the sovereigns will be able to complete their sets due to the fact that other sovereigns will be wandering the world as well.

Bonus points: let player customize the number of spell books / spell book volumes available when creating a new world.

Double bonus points: create spell books consisting of just 1 volume that contain extremely advanced / destructive magics. Imagine being the only owner of the "Daemon Mastery" book.

 

Spell / spell book research:

As mentioned above, spell books need to be found, not researched. But once you've found a spell book, how do you get access to it's hidden knowledge? Instead of spending spell points on researching specific spells, players will be able to focus their spell points on researching one of their current spell books. The research system will function like the technology system: upon reaching the required number of spell points to learn a new spell from a spell book, the player will be presented with the option of selecting one spell from a small selection of spells from that specific book (based on spell difficulty). Obviously the more spell book volumes that the player has collected, the more they'll be able to research from the book in the long run (with each volume adding more powerful / rare spells that can be researched).

 

Spell books / volumes as a resource:

Since the world will be filled with a limited number of spell book volumes, wouldn't it be nice to be able to do something with unwanted / excess books? Players should be able to use spell book volumes as diplomatic resources (selling, trading, w/e) with other civilizations.

It doesn't make a 100% amount of sense, but since we're already informed on other civilization populations / powers it would be fun to be able to see the number of available spell volumes in the world as well as well as being able to see specifically what spell book volumes other civilizations have access to. If one civilization has an entire library worth of books, the other civilizations in the world may feel a need to form a temporary alliance to deal with the situation. :D

 

Overview:

Since there is a lot of text above, I've reduced the core concepts to a small list to re-iterate through the primary ideas:

  • Spell books need to be important and contain access to unique spell trees. No spell clones!
  • Spell books need to composed of a set number of volumes. The more volumes a player has, the more spells they can learn from that specific field of magic.
  • Spell books need to be a limited resource to prevent civilizations from all ending up with the same magic by the end of the game.
  • Spell book volumes need to be found through quests / conquest rather than research.
  • Spells should be learned by spending points focusing on specific spell books and then selecting 1 spell from a small set of randomly selected spells from the appropriate book.
  • Spell book volumes need to be usable as a diplomatic resource.
  • Let players see what spell books are available in the world, and see what other civilizations have found.
  • Make a separate page for sovereign creation that focus on spell books to ensure the the player fully understands how important they are.
  • Allow sovereigns to be customized with varying numbers of starting spell book volumes.

The above bullet points is just a quick run down to add some clarity, I'd urge any developer reading this to go through the actual text.

Hopefully my ideas and concepts outlined in this post will be of some help.

8,804 views 28 replies
Reply #26 Top

In MoM, each spell school had direct damage spells, and they were all different. Even though chaos magic had many different direct damage spells (from the top of my head: lightening bolt, fire bolt, fire ball, doom bolt), they each had a unique effect to make them better at specific niches. Lightening is armor peircing, so I use it against heavily armored units, while fireball does its damage to each unit in a stack, making it superior against groups.
End of quote

This is exactly the kind of thing we need.  And then make it so you can't pursue all magic paths; your Sovereign has to specialize in only a couple of schools, either by making it prohibitively expensive to purchase multiple schools, or by making higher level spells in a school require you to first research the lower level ones (so if you want that nasty high level fire spell, you have to research the lower level ones first).

Obviously a lot of stuff isn't in the beta yet, but I'm a bit concerned that this game isn't even as good as MoM yet.

I think its trickier though in that there *are* currently more than 4 schools; in addition to the elements, there are Life, Death, Enchantment, Summoning and... Battle?  I think?

Reply #27 Top

 

What about something like this?

The Soveriegn has access to all spells once he has those spellbooks in his possesion, but Champions/Adventurers are limited to a certain number of spell-slots.  Now those champions might have different traits to make them better at certain things. For example one might have a +2 bonus on summoning spells, thus you probably are going to slot his/her spells with summoning ones, another might have a +3 bonus to fire spells.  This should clear up the UI for the Adventurer/Champion units, as well as give additional choices at level up.  Do I take more mana?  Raise my Int for more damage, or choose to take an additional spell slot?

Another possibility would be to use a combination of slots and spell levels.  So for example the Champion Mars, might have 30 spell slots open...so he could have 30 1st level spells or 3 10th level spells, or any combination adding up to 30.

So for the champion/adventurer units the UI should be pretty clear as they only have a set number of spell-slots.

For the Soveriegn I think others have posted some good ideas.  Depending on where the Soveriegn is at when he clicks the spell-book will bring up those subset of spells...Combat will bring up tactical, in a city will bring up city/global enchantments, on the main map will bring up summoning or unit enhancements.

When clicking on the study spells link will only show what spells can still be studied.  Perhaps just have one page with closed links based on the school such as

+ Enhancements

+ Summoning

+ Direct Damage (Evocation)

From there you click on the + link to open up the spell book to view the spells under that particular school so you don't have to go page after page of spells.

Reply #28 Top

My biggest qualms with the magic system thus far...

  • Spell books. I don't like the way that magic is done now, research wise. We find a spellbook and can suddenly research all the spells of that school? I think it was TheProgress who had the multiple-volumes-per-school thing. I like this idea. However, I don't like the idea that we can suddenly find a book of magic via a tech (Sire, we have learned about the Restoration spellbook. And by magic, the spellbook has revealed itself to have always been part of the school's library!) and would rather that spellbooks were gained another way. Dungeons, perhaps. Trading. Dragons. Or perhaps a demonic summoning ritual to barter for the books. Whatever - just don't make spellbooks appear because I have the tech. Maybe make it so the tech lets me translate the spellbook, and thus without a high Magic tech I can have all the spellbooks, but not read most of them?
  • Sorting spells. Segallion's ideas mirror my own. Sort spells into damage, summoning, or buffs/debuffs for tactical. For strategic, sort spells into overland damage, terraforming, enchantments, and utility. Since spells have levels, sort them from the highest level and down, since most we'll cast a higher level spell more often than a lower level one.

And I've given some thought to spell cloning/unique spells. Mostly, I agree with Gazer, in that spells should have additional effects based on their nature. Fire magic burns stuff. Ice magic freezes stuff. So on, so forth. But just giving each type of magic an arbitrary bonus will not help cloning - it'll be the same clone, in just different clothes. At the same time, the game heavily favors those who have multiple spellbooks vs. those who don't, for the sheer sake of variety.

Likewise, as I said above, the magic tech tree seems...lacking. Could just be the betas, or could just be the tree. So why not spice that up, too?

Once we hit the third level of a spellbook, open up a new magic tech tree research line. In this line, we can further research a spellbook, enhancing our magical proficiency and the overall effectiveness of our spells. If we base it off of the GalCiv 2 system with the Abilities, then increase the effectiveness of those spells by that percent (IE, having +60 ability for Fire Magic would mean that any spell from the Fire spellbook is 60% more effective). Further, let us build unique structures that boosts the relevant Abilities. A Citadel of Flame would increase the overall duration of all fire magic spells...or a Tower of Fire would increase the range of fire magic. Things like that.

This naturally promotes specialization. If you focus solely on one spellbook, those magics will be VASTLY superior compared to focusing on two, or three, etc. Your cities will reflect these benefits with the structures yielding additional power, and each structure will be limited to one per city (so you can't have a Tower of Fire and a Tower of Summoning in the same city).

For those who want to generalize, after hitting the 3rd level in X spellbooks, a general magic enhancement research tree opens up. This isn't as effective as the focused casting (if focused gives +5%, generalized gives +2%) but is still a solid way of enhancing your magic.

Since it's based off of increasing the ability level, it shouldn't be too painful to implement. My only fear is that with a TON of research will come spells that are able to one-shot even the most powerful enemies. The balancing will be the hardest part...diminishing returns, perhaps?

-N