Beta 4 impressions after some quick games.

from Elemental Forums

Hi there! Elemental is really starting to take shape. The improved AI seems to have made a real difference...i now feel challenge and therefore I feel like I am playing a game. Here's some quick thoughts on the game after playing the new beta

 

Civilisation - The resource system works very well in my opinion. My main suggestion at this point would be to include some upgrades that can increase the growth rate or influence of the town significantly, but for high costs. At the moment, you place down a city, and it will slowly grow to gobble up the surrouding resources. This is fine, but should an enemy place a city next door, there is no way currently to shove his border back off those resources, bar a few unique wonder of the world style upgrade or direct warfare. It would be nice to be able to pour money or resources into the settlement to expand you culture, at the expense of potentially upsetting your neighbour diplomatically as in Gal Civ. Heroes, agents, spells, or city upgrades could all be good ways to add this. Without this, the civilisation aspect seems less strategic and more a case of making sure you have built enough houses so they can grow.

Warfare - Two thoughts. Firstly, at the moment I find warfare is the most powerful and interesting tech tree. I don't normal play 4x games in a militaristic fashion, but at the moment I am more or less encouraged to by the game. Tough roaming monsters threaten cities from the outset, important heroes need outfitting and protecting, and the other trees don't offer the same power or variety to do this. It would be nice to see the Adventure tree add more upgrades to heroes, such as unlocking more weapons in the shops or giving global buffs, and it would be nice to see magic feeling more powerful in combat.

Secondly, I don't like how each enemy gets infinite retaliations in tactical battles. This seems to make certain units feel weak or useless, particularly the non-hero melee units, as they tend to hit for 1 or 2 damage and then immidiatly die to the retaliation. Other units, such as archers, become very powerful as they don't suffer retaliations. Also this encourages the player to build heroes with one single, powerful attack, rather than lots of fast but weak attacks, which i feel should be equally good strategies. At the moment I found the most effective way to win tactical battle was to kite the enemy, using peasants to block their path,while archers and casters shoot them, and then finishing them with a powerful attack from a hero. Retaliations need to be limited in some respect so they don't just feel like the enemy has a powerful damage shield.

Magic -  I have not explored the tech tree very much, mostly because I seem to get a good variety of spells very easily from the outset through arcane research. Mostly I am finding the utility spells to be very powerful, such as teleport, and enchantment buffs, whereas the combat spells don't seem powerful enough to justify their use of my mana. But that might just be air magic :)

Adventure - I like the quest system and it's going to be my favourite part of the game when completed. Right now though, I don't like how easy it is to lose heroes without much warning. You step on a harmless looking goodie hut, and suddenly you are in a fight with a load of giant spiders which you can't win, wiping out all that hard work. Equally one hit from a tough beastie can kill a hero - so you might win the fight but you have lost your soveriegns husband :( Heroes represent a big investment, and shouldn't be easily lost to bad luck. I think that the Adventure tree should not just unlock dungeons, but add survivability to heroes....let the escape, be rezzed, or make them tougher, so that investing in this tree makes you more confident in sending your precious units into scary dungeons.

Diplomacy - There is a nice framework here, and its going to work well when completed. There needs to be a greater variety of ways to gain diplomatic capital, but I think overall this is going to be a crucial part of the game, particularly with the way roads and trade work.

Keep up the excellent work!

 

4,017 views 8 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I do like how the game is shaping up, but it does not seem clear where the tactical battles are going.  It may not be fair to compare it to other games at this stage in the Beta, but there are many tactical battle games that when played compel me to want to play more tactical battles. 

 At this point they almost seem to detract from the game, and I generally want to skip battles for now. They are missing the "fun" element. Thinking back on past games I've played, the combat is really enjoyable in HOMMV, Final Fantasy tactics, Jeanne D'arc.  While I am not looking for Elemental to be any of those games, it certainly should avoid the OMG I can't wait to get out of this battle. Hopefully the tactical battles will get a unique twist that will make them stand out from those gaems.

All the units almost appear to be the same type to me in combat.  They each have an attack, health, defense, but beyond that they seem almost static.  For example in Jean D'arc you have your tanks, your ranged damage dealers, your spell casters, and each of these need to be played very carefully, each move you make in the game is critical.  I get no emotional attachment to any of the characters accompanying my soveriegn.  Each participant in the battle needs to have a more defined "job". 

Anyhow, great job so far, looking forward to future updates!

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Great feedback

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Great feedback!

Re Technology Trees and what to expect as we move towards release:

  • Civilization Tech Trees will continue to focus on things that improve your city. We're slowly migrating towards a system where certain buildings will require food to maintain (to feed the people working in them).  In addition, we are looking to incorporate more maintainence related costs into this area.
  • Warfare. For those who like the city building, the civ tech feels the best. For those who like warfare, the warfare is the one to go for.  However, warfare will change quite a bit with the introduction of special abilities.
  • Magic is the area that is going to be getting the most attention. There will be a lot more spells and a lot more magical equipment that will make a big difference in battle.
  • The Adventure part of the game is proving the most challenging. It'll be the area of the game that will come across as the most different since none of the goodie huts and quests (except for the Master Quest) are likely to survive to release.
  • Diplomacy. Agree on this. More to come.

 

 

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Cordsmith, reply 1
I do like how the game is shaping up, but it does not seem clear where the tactical battles are going.  It may not be fair to compare it to other games at this stage in the Beta, but there are many tactical battle games that when played compel me to want to play more tactical battles. 

 At this point they almost seem to detract from the game, and I generally want to skip battles for now. They are missing the "fun" element. Thinking back on past games I've played, the combat is really enjoyable in HOMMV, Final Fantasy tactics, Jeanne D'arc.  While I am not looking for Elemental to be any of those games, it certainly should avoid the OMG I can't wait to get out of this battle. Hopefully the tactical battles will get a unique twist that will make them stand out from those gaems.

All the units almost appear to be the same type to me in combat.  They each have an attack, health, defense, but beyond that they seem almost static.  For example in Jean D'arc you have your tanks, your ranged damage dealers, your spell casters, and each of these need to be played very carefully, each move you make in the game is critical.  I get no emotional attachment to any of the characters accompanying my soveriegn.  Each participant in the battle needs to have a more defined "job". 

Anyhow, great job so far, looking forward to future updates!
End of Cordsmith's quote

 

First all, I can't believe someone else has actually played Jeanne D'Arc. :)

Second - I agree that units feel the same, however, that might be because of the tech system? For example, I have a unit with 10 Attack and 3 defense after getting some levels in Warfare. That's a stark contrast to the utter crap I had before. Perhaps if I wanted a tank, I would need to prioritize armor so I can get a 3 attack, 10 defense unit (say a unit with plate armor, tower shield....and a staff. Their only job would be to stand in front of my squishy mage sovereign with 5 STR and 9 CON and be a human (or fallen) wall of flesh and steel. If they actually hit on counterattack, fine, but that's a bonus.

I also agree with the unlimited counters being a bad thing. I think relate it to DEX of the unit or maybe their combat speed (i.e. they get combat speed number of counters per turn). Then for heroes, you could buff it for a wade-in-and-get-bloody warrior that slashes everything the slashes him, but it would be a contrast to the high defense, absorb damage, but maybe he only has 1 combat move so he gets just one counter.

 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

First all, I can't believe someone else has actually played Jeanne D'Arc.
End of quote

 

LOL I love that game, but you know what it is that is missing.  When a character dies in Jeanne D'Arc, you have one of those "Oh Crap" feelings.  When one of my party memebers dies in elemental I have the "Let's see what I can research next" feelings.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Secondly, I don't like how each enemy gets infinite retaliations in tactical battles. This seems to make certain units feel weak or useless, particularly the non-hero melee units, as they tend to hit for 1 or 2 damage and then immidiatly die to the retaliation. Other units, such as archers, become very powerful as they don't suffer retaliations. Also this encourages the player to build heroes with one single, powerful attack, rather than lots of fast but weak attacks, which i feel should be equally good strategies.

End of quote

the problem about this is the weak imbue to m ake champions cast and the lack of special abilities

 

also you prolly didnt try to buy items on champions eh?

with few research e not so much gold you can get a very good amount of armor and attack (even on troops you can equip on them) and they surely dont hit for 1 2 and die

 

At the moment I found the most effective way to win tactical battle was to kite the enemy, using peasants to block their path,while archers and casters shoot them, and then finishing them with a powerful attack from a hero. Retaliations need to be limited in some respect so they don't just feel like the enemy has a powerful damage shield.

End of quote

 

retaliation is fine

i still insist that paying 2 to move and 1 to atttack is wrong instead,unless most monster would start with 4 points+

ofc its hard to judge without some sort of balance and abilities

anyway stuff on the field move too few and attack too much, imo

 

 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
Great feedback!

Re Technology Trees and what to expect as we move towards release:


Civilization Tech Trees will continue to focus on things that improve your city. We're slowly migrating towards a system where certain buildings will require food to maintain (to feed the people working in them).  In addition, we are looking to incorporate more maintainence related costs into this area.
Warfare. For those who like the city building, the civ tech feels the best. For those who like warfare, the warfare is the one to go for.  However, warfare will change quite a bit with the introduction of special abilities.
Magic is the area that is going to be getting the most attention. There will be a lot more spells and a lot more magical equipment that will make a big difference in battle.
The Adventure part of the game is proving the most challenging. It'll be the area of the game that will come across as the most different since none of the goodie huts and quests (except for the Master Quest) are likely to survive to release.
Diplomacy. Agree on this. More to come.

 

 
End of Frogboy's quote

 

Very good news on adventure, magic and diplomacy :-). I knew you were looking at these things and i got Beta 4 and thought "er... yerwhat?" Also, kudos on the AI, certainly improving :-). I played my first beta4 game in my now-accustomed "Meh. Who needs a defence with this AI" manner. I ended up resigning..... :D :P

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Cordsmith, reply 1
I do like how the game is shaping up, but it does not seem clear where the tactical battles are going.  It may not be fair to compare it to other games at this stage in the Beta, but there are many tactical battle games that when played compel me to want to play more tactical battles. 

 At this point they almost seem to detract from the game, and I generally want to skip battles for now. They are missing the "fun" element. Thinking back on past games I've played, the combat is really enjoyable in HOMMV, Final Fantasy tactics, Jeanne D'arc.  While I am not looking for Elemental to be any of those games, it certainly should avoid the OMG I can't wait to get out of this battle. Hopefully the tactical battles will get a unique twist that will make them stand out from those gaems.

All the units almost appear to be the same type to me in combat.  They each have an attack, health, defense, but beyond that they seem almost static.  For example in Jean D'arc you have your tanks, your ranged damage dealers, your spell casters, and each of these need to be played very carefully, each move you make in the game is critical.  I get no emotional attachment to any of the characters accompanying my soveriegn.  Each participant in the battle needs to have a more defined "job". 

Anyhow, great job so far, looking forward to future updates!
End of Cordsmith's quote

Great post, I totally agree with this. I hope combat gets a lot more lovin'