[0.90][3B][Gameplay] feeling compelled to fight all tactical battles

By default, the tactical battle is set for 4 units. Sadly, at the beginning of the game, if your sovereign has at least a combat speed of 2, you must fight all battles, especially against spiders which have 25 HP but only a combat speed of 1.

You let them come near you. During your turn, you spend 1 action to attack and 1 to move back. That way, you can hurt the spider each turn, without being hit by the spider. So you end the game without any scars. If you choose the auto-resolve, you will end with 5 or 7 HP less than when you decided to fight.

If I remember correctly, one aim for the AI in tactical battle was ensure that human players aren't compelled to fight all tactical battles. If the AI, when doing the autoresolve, can't use a valid hit and run tactic, allowed by the combat rules (you can't do that in HoMM or KB since attacking will use all action points of your unit), then the tactical battle will be seen as a burden.

2,467 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top

Maybe once an attack is initiated, movement should no longer be allowed for the duration of that turn?

Reply #2 Top

Quoting crafty35a, reply 1
Maybe once an attack is initiated, movement should no longer be allowed for the duration of that turn?
End of crafty35a's quote

I agree! But what if it's an intended tactic of your unit to "hit and run" that unit should have to have a special item? And stats should balance out by using said item... ???

Reply #3 Top

Most tactical combat games that allow this type of combat will allow attacked units to retaliate so you can't exploit the movement difference so much.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Tourresh, reply 3
Most tactical combat games that allow this type of combat will allow attacked units to retaliate so you can't exploit the movement difference so much.
End of Tourresh's quote

 

Yeah, in fact, it was a special trait in HoMM if a unit prevented any retaliation. Otherwise, you took a hit after giving one in Melee and I think in range if you attacked a ranged target (i.e. an archer attacking another ranged unit)

Reply #5 Top

Quoting VR_IronMana, reply 4

Quoting Tourresh, reply 3Most tactical combat games that allow this type of combat will allow attacked units to retaliate so you can't exploit the movement difference so much.

 

Yeah, in fact, it was a special trait in HoMM if a unit prevented any retaliation. Otherwise, you took a hit after giving one in Melee and I think in range if you attacked a ranged target (i.e. an archer attacking another ranged unit)
End of VR_IronMana's quote

 

More to the point, I believe HoMM implemented exactly the mechanic that I mentioned in my post above -- once you attack, you are considered engaged with the enemy and cannot move that turn. Or maybe it was that if you moved away from an adjacent enemy, they got a free attack as you walked away. Either way, something needs to be done, and if counter-attacking is not implemented, then disallowing movement after an attack would seem to be necessary.

Reply #6 Top

Arg..update needs to hurry up and download (i only just started the DL), because i fear i'm at risk of looking like an idiot talking here...so feel free to ignore me if this is wrong:P

From reading it sounds like by using a combat point to attack, you move foward AND attack, effectively giving you 2 actions instead of 1).  Perhaps movement could be better tied (read balanced) into it's effect on your combat speed usage, or better yet, simply make movement a once a turn thing, aka:
you move 
move then attack
attack then move

This means you could still perform hit and runs, but over the course of 2 turns, giving the opponent a chance to react.  And also fitting in with with the fact a lvl 1 sov could not win against a much more powerful but slower unit without using spells or a small army (read meat shield:P)

I do like the idea however as something a higher level sov or special monster/unit can do and since we're going to be getting more character traits at some point, it might be worth mentioning a DnD feat in relation to having an item that allows such tactics.  'Shots on the run' (dnd v3.5) was a specific feat that allows splitting your move before and after an attack in a turn.  Having that as a costly trait would be quiet nice, making it understandable why a sov can weave in and out of combat before anyone can react (assuming he can still move far enough away that the dragon doesn't decide it's easier to roast him before chewing than the other way around}:) )

Reply #7 Top


By default, the tactical battle is set for 4 units. Sadly, at the beginning of the game, if your sovereign has at least a combat speed of 2, you must fight all battles, especially against spiders which have 25 HP but only a combat speed of 1.

You let them come near you. During your turn, you spend 1 action to attack and 1 to move back. That way, you can hurt the spider each turn, without being hit by the spider. So you end the game without any scars. If you choose the auto-resolve, you will end with 5 or 7 HP less than when you decided to fight.

If I remember correctly, one aim for the AI in tactical battle was ensure that human players aren't compelled to fight all tactical battles. If the AI, when doing the autoresolve, can't use a valid hit and run tactic, allowed by the combat rules (you can't do that in HoMM or KB since attacking will use all action points of your unit), then the tactical battle will be seen as a burden.

End of quote

 

yeah but this is suppposed to be a cheating  mechanics

 

you are supposed to kite using actual skill like slowing spells and stuff, or terrain obstacles

that will be the legit kite

 

surely its not supposed to let you kite a 242142412 41 hp monster just hitting for 1 dmg for 24423525325325 consecutive turns without getting counterattacked

Reply #8 Top

I think one of the best ways to solve this problem is to do what MoM did. Which is when you attack the enemy gets a retaliation attack. This way there was a chance you could actually die from attacking someone it wasn't simply a free hit. There was still reasons to Kite in MoM such as if you had healers you knew you could outlast them rather then trading all your blows each round.

Reply #9 Top

surely its not supposed to let you kite a 242142412 41 hp monster just hitting for 1 dmg for 24423525325325 consecutive turns without getting counterattacked
End of quote

Yes, I should not be able  kill a bone ogre (150 HP, 60 ATK, 3 DEF) with a level 4 sovereign with only 12HP and 9 ATK and no spells

Reply #10 Top

I don't know what to make of these retaliation attack comments.  In my 3B games so far, enemy units have always damaged me (or attempted to damage me) when I attack.

Reply #11 Top

Some units do in fact counter attack, like a wolf for example, however, many don't counter attack. 

Reply #12 Top

I agree - units need to counter attack. You could say that they counter with only 'half' of their usual power - but then some units (like wolves) get a 'full' counter attack that has max potential for damage.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting crafty35a, reply 5

Quoting VR_IronMana, reply 4
Quoting Tourresh, reply 3Most tactical combat games that allow this type of combat will allow attacked units to retaliate so you can't exploit the movement difference so much.

 

Yeah, in fact, it was a special trait in HoMM if a unit prevented any retaliation. Otherwise, you took a hit after giving one in Melee and I think in range if you attacked a ranged target (i.e. an archer attacking another ranged unit)
 

More to the point, I believe HoMM implemented exactly the mechanic that I mentioned in my post above -- once you attack, you are considered engaged with the enemy and cannot move that turn. Or maybe it was that if you moved away from an adjacent enemy, they got a free attack as you walked away. Either way, something needs to be done, and if counter-attacking is not implemented, then disallowing movement after an attack would seem to be necessary.
End of crafty35a's quote

 

 

Well HoMM 5 had units that would hit then return to their original square (which was also a special trait). I think the unit I'm thinking of, Blood Fury in Dungeon towns, had both strike and return AND no retaliation. In Elemental, that would take 3 combat moves - one to get there, one to attack, one to move away.

Otherwise, yeah, most units had 1 move and 1 attack and got 1 counter attack (unless, again, another special trait that allowed unlimited retaliations) per turn and had no movement after attacking (again barring traits)

And yeah, I think at least one version gave the free attack if you walked away from a melee unit.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting otakucore2, reply 10
I don't know what to make of these retaliation attack comments.  In my 3B games so far, enemy units have always damaged me (or attempted to damage me) when I attack.
End of otakucore2's quote

 

I don't remember getting counter attacked, just attacked when it's their turn. I remember waiting one square away with my 2.0 moves sovereign, the enemy moves to me, me attacking, then moving 1 square away. I never took a counter attack and they never could attack me because they used their action to get into melee range.

I think what might would solve it is that attacks are "free" (i.e. no action points lost), but you only get one per turn (or maybe scale it so you gain your next attack at 2^(num_current_attacks)

 

1 current attack = next at 2^1 or 2 combat speed

2 current attacks = next at 2^2 or 4 combat speed

3 current attacks = next at 2^3 or 8 combat speed

...etc