[suggestion] Remove Wisdom attribute

from Elemental Forums

After reading some discussion as how caster souvereigns are weaker than melee souvereigns (which should only be discussed after the introduction of tactical battles) i came nevertheless to the conclusion that wisdom should be removed.

Mana regeneration should instead be related to int and essence. (At this point, is it on purpuse that the starting essence is coupled to starting int?)

This is motivated by the following fact:

Melee souvereigns have to level Str (offense) and Dex (Defense).

In contrast, a caster has to level Int (offensive power), Essence (Max Mana), Wisdom (Mana regeneration) and Dex (because he can also be the aim of attacks). Therefore in fact the power of caster souvereigns does grow slower than the power of melee souvereigns. [On a side note: similar discussions were present in World of Warcraft resulting in the fact that at the moment damage casters have no longer any regerenation stats but (by some mechanism) unlimited mana]

Removing Wisdom from the equation caster champions will still have two stats which are required for their offensive capabilities.

 

2,568 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

i think it should be improved before removing, if you ever played D&D every stat  had their use.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

You forget Constitution. Warriors need it. Wizards don't need it the same they don't need Dexterity. Wizards should be using meat shields to protect themselves from close combat and ranged powers/units to hit enemy ranged menaces. How that would work in autobattle, I have no idea.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

You forget Constitution.
End of quote

Well, constitution just add value on HP when STR and DEX have a multiplying effects on ATK and DEF.

There are no real incentive to add points to your constitution.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Peace, reply 3

You forget Constitution.


Well, constitution just add value on HP when STR and DEX have a multiplying effects on ATK and DEF.

There are no real incentive to add points to your constitution.
End of Peace's quote
Where is the "Remove Constitution attribute" thread then?:P

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 2
You forget Constitution. Warriors need it. Wizards don't need it the same they don't need Dexterity. Wizards should be using meat shields to protect themselves from close combat and ranged powers/units to hit enemy ranged menaces. How that would work in autobattle, I have no idea.
End of Wintersong's quote

I'm going to highly enjoy shooting your super squishy sovereign. :P

 

The other proposed solution for the wisdom problem is to untie Essence from max mana and have Wisdom (or Willpower) control that instead. When it's boosting both max mana and mana regen, Wisdom is pretty nice. See here for more info.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, constitution just add value on HP when STR and DEX have a multiplying effects on ATK and DEF.

There are no real incentive to add points to your constitution.
End of quote

Yes, because having your Sovereign die in one hit from just about anything is a good thing :P

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

anyone could die from a boulder in one hit.... so whats so weak about willpower to push that rock?

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 5
I'm going to highly enjoy shooting your super squishy sovereign.
End of Tridus's quote
Only if I give you the chance of having my wizard unprepared (= no proper spells and/or army). :P But that's the risk if you want a true magic Sovereign versus a might Sovereign. ;) Hybrids are... hybrids, and shouldn't complain of needing too many stats.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Hey - you're comparing it to D&D where CON affected a few things including the Concentration rolls [if you're hit you have a chance to mess up the spell you're casting] of spellcasters as well as the HP, and rolls against many other effects like poison.

I agree with the thread - too many stats means wizards get left in the dust.

I agree with getting rid of WIS, and having Essence and Intelligence both determine max. mana, and essence the speed of regeneration. Also the speed of regen influence should be a % of the pool and not an absolute number to make more interesting scaling - it'd let you have higher cost spells so it actually feels like they're powerful.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

First - what is Willpower? I don't remember seeing that stat? Do you mean Wisdom?

Second - why not have Wisdom impact certain spells. Kinda like the Cleric/Wiz distinction in D&D and other RPGs.

 

Attack/Debuff Magic = Int

Heal/Defense/Buff Magic = Wis

Call...er...I mean Summon magic = Int + Cha

World Magic (stuff that impacts the map) = Int + Wis

 

This would give "melee" rulers 3 stats to care most about (Str, Con, Dex) and "magic" rulers 3 stats (Int, Wis, Cha)


In addition, wisdom can impact mana recovery and max mana (or max essence, however it works now) and how much you gain on level up ("constitution for MP" so to speak)

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

changed willpower to wisdem, thats actually what i meant.

As written above casters also have to care about defensive stats because they can also be targeted by attacks. Or on the other hand physical suovereigns could simply use ranged weapons and then no longer care about defensive stats.

The question is: do we really need to invent further difficulties to justify the stat? or can we simply recognize that it is a useless stat and remove it? I would prefer the second option.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Yeah, right lets, leave 2 attributes "wizardness" and "fighterness".

No, wait, that way we still need to balance something... Lets only leave 1 and call it "Ultimativeness".

Who needs diversity? It's not like stats can be balanced... you know.

And It's obvious to everyone that the less characteristics you need to put points into the stronger you get...

 

Drop it people, think before you swing...

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

During development of some other fantasy mod (which was more like a game) our design was, that a decision should be meaningful. Simply adding additional options that are clearly worse than the alternatives, only to create a illusion of variety was then thought to be unnessesary and i still think it is.

A chamipon has a lot of flexibility right now and according to the manual we will gain much better choices to add flexibility to our champions:

 In addition, at certain milestones, the unit can also choose a special ability (sometimes
referred to as feats) to their unit. These special abilities can provide unique attacks, helpful
benefits in and out of combat to themselves or to team members as well as help specialize
a unit towards a particular task.

Therefore removing a stat does not dumb down the game, but gives more weight to the other options. Remember choices should be meaningful.