[Suggestions] Elemental Gameplay

Actually not too sure where the best place for this is. Here or the Beta forum or under Frogboys nose!? Feel free to delete one Stardock.

 

Ok now that we're onto v.806, I'd like to add a few comments on Elemental gameplay.. There will be issues that will inevitably be changed or polished, and whilst bearing in mind it's still beta, I'll raise them here regardless. Some of these points also cross over into each other and some will be raised on points i am unaware of, however this is meant to be after all, constructive criticism.

 

  1. Intuitiveness: The intuitiveness of the game needs work. I know this is a strategy game. I know it has battles and cities. I start with my character whom has a create kingdom button alongside his profile. A city is created. Buildings can be built and soldiers also once the command post has been built. Then i am left to click what i know unless i poke around and explore through buttons. Clicking on various buttons may well give me something, but the intuitiveness isn't present to do so in the first place. I'm a spellcaster and I know i can attack people in combat but i have no idea how i am casting. I can research spells but i cant intuitively understand the relation to magic, spells and spellpoints etc. from my character, let alone other npcs. The right hand bar with events is well and good but when i get 20 come up in one turn it is a hassle and monotonous routine to have to either hover and read each one, and or close them each turn. I don't know how to adventure or what heroes mean. Adventuring to me means moving my character onto a goody hut. Are NPC characters just another troop type i can use to fight with that may or may not confer certain bonuses to my kingdom and carry items?

    • Solution: Tool tips. Popups. Event reminders. Graphical representations. A single window at the start of the turn listing buildings built in which town would suffice to cut down clutter and with which to be disposed of with one click. Automatic cycling through units/cities which not haven't been actioned that turn would also give greater intuitiveness to the player. A reason to click or want to click certain buttons is missing. A 'Elementalopedia' is needed or a way to view tech info after researching them.

  2. Immersion: The game lacks the immersive qualities of a good game. I feel no reason to play the game from the start. I'm not driven to build cities or crush my enemies. Nor am i driven to go on quests, to marry or enter alliances etc. The attempts to create an immersive atmosphere by means of goody huts, questing locations/dialogue etc. are all well and good, but are too common and repetitive to warrant anymore than clickable buttons..

    • Solution: Once again, a greater intuitive interface and communication system to the player will help this. Better and more varied dialogue but in shorter punchier grabs. The opening screen after world creation starts to tell me something but i just click because it seems to much to read for no gain. The same with quests. Maybe there should be invisible locations that you can puzzle out by reading the dialogue rather than an automatic map beacon all the time. Caravan people traveling along the roads are a nice touch but maybe more can be made of it. Little towns/huts popping up along the roads which may confer gold bonus, can be pillaged? Random signs in the wilderness pointing out locations (cities or hidden ones)(shamelessly taken from Warlords). Inns can heal units if rested there for gold. Your own characters should have somewhat of a mind of there own as far as questing etc. goes. (shamelessly taken from Majesty) Random events which cause attacks/sieges to occur to a city (shamelessly taken from Castles) That game actually had an interesting gameplay path somewhat driven by player story/event decisions.

  3. AI: Now although Frogger has already stated the AI is and isn't a problem right at this moment, it's still an issue at the moment. It's nowhere where it needs to be in all terms of NPC interaction etc. These things will be worked on warranted, BUT games like this one fall down in areas as i have mentioned above simply by the removal of need. The AI is insufficient enough to wage war in any manner at the moment. So many options to do with building cities/buildings/soldiers, casting spells and engaging diplomacy  are driven by war and the need to be on the offensive/defensive and are crippled without a sufficient need to use them. These become a matter of button clicking now rather than strategic decisions based on the hostile nature of relationships and motivation.

    • Solution: The game AI needs to switch on 'Raging Barbarians' quick smart if the beta players are to be able to efficiently and effectively gauge the games system and components properly at this stage of the beta.

  4. Pace: Whilst the pace of the game is undoubtedly tied somewhat to the above, it is also somewhat lacking in terms of ability to do many basic options early on without advancing some aspect. I'm a spellcaster but i know limited spells by which to cast with. My warriors are limited to start with and i have to build a building first to do so.

    • Solution: Raging Barbarians is a start but also the ability to stay one city and be able to crank out magic/soldiers etc.. effectively early on. There maybe should be a minor and major version of spells (shamelessly taken from Warhammer 8th Ed). Contested ground should be a viable option. Pillaging special tiles/shards and competing over possession when unlinked to a city so there is more to do early game. You guard a special tile for X amount of time and receive a unit/item/spell etc.. (capture the flag).


  5. Cities/Special tiles: Cities are too linked to the surrounding special tiles and as such form snaking formations. Special tiles are too removed from the map graphically. Cities become too alike and numerous. It becomes simply a matter of button clicking untill you city becomes really big filled with building tiles and you've built everything you can. I don't even look at gold and food production except for housing because its not a concern for me. I just click, rince and repeat each turn and on each city. The buildings themselves seem to meld too well into the general graphical style to warrant distinction.

    • Solution: Special tiles should be grouped with like terrain and more seamlessly integrated into the map. Cities should be somewhat contained in how much they grow and how fast. I really like the idea of giving cities specialisations upon growing and I think this area should be explored some more. More diversity by specialisation. Maybe you can only build certain buildings after choosing a certain specialisations. Specialisation and building bonuses need to be more intuitively attributed graphically also. Greater distance between cities with an emphasis on villages along roads could help diversify the map. Less buildings or greater building tile allocations (like tetris 3 tile buildings in a line or L etc.) and more seemless integration of building titles into the city structure should be used to help diversify cities.

  6. Spells/Research: Pretty much to sum up what i have said above about each. I could just click my merry way through both of them, and despite acquiring new buildings which i would see, not know what the hell i am doing, what bonuses or spells i am acquiring and what they do or where i may check there impact on later.

    • Solution: There needs to be more intuitive and critically informative access and implementation of both.

These are a few of the things that i can see at the moment off the top of my head which, outside graphical and stability bug fixes, need attention imho.

 

Cheers,

Darkhour

4,155 views 3 replies
Reply #1 Top

I was going to start a new [SUG] thread related to cities in Beta 3A but as you've covered the main points Drkhour, i'll add them here. Good post btw!

I felt like Beta3A was something of a step back in terms of fun from Beta 3, as concerns city building. Some of that feeling might be attributable to change aversion and acustomisation but I also think there is scope for some improvements.

Contiguous tile development (i.e. not being able to develop a resource unless another building touches the tile) is less fun than the Beta3 "city radius" buildable zone, as the player response is too gamey: snaking of buildings like wheel spokes. I think its right that a city has a building "range", like civ's "fat cross" or Beta3's radius.

No more gardens, bootstrapping the building of cities to food resources -or limiting their growth beyond a hamlet is perhaps one of those where I just ned to adjust my play style. Gardens de-linked cities from resources too much and this is something I'm keen to reinforce. That said, I found food resources quite scarce on the maps i've played in B3A so far and it's been a bit challenging to find enough food to fuel growth. Perhaps I need to consider more carefully what cities will remain a resource extracting hamlet and which will become centres of population -if this is the intended choice then well done, I think this is working.

Resources/ Map generation, I have found resources fairly disparate (on Small maps) and positively distant in larger maps. My understanding (or desire) of larger maps was for a similar concentration of resources, but over a larger area. Not vast empty areas.

Reply #2 Top

1. Most of it really requires more intuitiveness, but I disagree on some points.

I'd prefer current interface to daily pop-up.

There is Hiergamenon or whatever it's called, which is an in-game encyclopedia... except it likes to give you crashes instead of information on 50/50 basis.

Also I'm concerned with auto-something features. Auto switch just pisses me off at times, and auto turn can leave me without a recruit. I'd like some override functions or even alternatives such as manual switching (sleep and "next character" buttons in HMM3 and disciples 2 comes to mind) and pop-ups asking me if i want to end turn once everyone is sleeping or unable to move instead of automatic turn skipping (although current systems accelerates player turns, so I guess overrides would work best).

2. Thats nice and tasty in SP, but in MP... err lets, just say that I don't want my opponent to be smelling flowers while it's his turn.

There's a choice - gameplay without story vs gameplay with story. I'm not going to name it a waste of text just because it's not to my liking, but it definitely has to be optional with a way to separate those who want to smell the flowers and those who don't.

3. Yep, testing order and coding order don't go together on this one. I guess we have to theorycraft and speculate and hope that it all miraculously works out in the end.

4. Naaah, I like my pacing thank you very much. Current pacing is suited for differentiation.

If the action does not start until later, then the game is about using your time and resources how you see fit, and then comparing this to what your opponent did with his time and resources.

If the action starts early however, then you have to constantly look back and focus more effort on military early on. I believe this saps the whole "chose your way of progression" and "chose your preferred path to victory" thing.

That said, there's already a threat of CR-focused sovereign rush, however the Master of All things Frog-like  ;P   have stated that this is an AI issue and not a strategy issue. (gee, now that made me remember Escape from monkey island... ahh... "good times, gree frog.." err... I mean free grog...)

 

Research and city building.

About research I've made a [sug] of my own, I'll just say that I want it to have bigger impact on advancement direction, give more randomization in strategy from acquiring rares, and at the same time be more flexible. (as it is now you can easily get all green/yellow and the rest barely matters).

Now city building...

Food limits are there for a reason. - To make player think twice where he places his cities and how big (read: leveled) he wants them to be.

Resource nodes aren't landscape-integrated for another reason - that is landscape is also a gameplay element. Limiting old growth and wild hunts to forests for example would mean that there'll have to be a forest near every third "resourceful" area. And the landscape, so to speak, is subject to "sovereignoforming". I think Master of All things Frog-like previously mentioned that they (SD) don't want any aesthetic environment to confuse a real environment with.

Also I find that there's to much micro associated with town building. I'm with alh_p on this one - snaking isn't fun. It's also aesthetically displeasing. And it's really irritating to wait for one building to finish because you want to snake another one off it instead of queuing them up.

I also think that there should be more impact from resource availability. I've got a region with lots of iron? Screw it! I'll go and place my city elsewhere because 3 iron nods and something aren't worth 1 food node and err... another something. But on second thought, maybe I'm not researching enough diplomacy...

Now let us all take another look at point 3 and take a deep sigh...

Reply #3 Top

Quoting alh_p, reply 1
I was going to start a new [SUG] thread related to cities in Beta 3A but as you've covered the main points Drkhour, i'll add them here. Good post btw!
End of alh_p's quote

Cheers :)

 

Quoting Reianor3, reply 2

1. Most of it really requires more intuitiveness, but I disagree on some points.

2. Thats nice and tasty in SP, but in MP... err lets, just say that I don't want my opponent to be smelling flowers while it's his turn.

There's a choice - gameplay without story vs gameplay with story. I'm not going to name it a waste of text just because it's not to my liking, but it definitely has to be optional with a way to separate those who want to smell the flowers and those who don't.

End of Reianor3's quote

 

Don'y get me wrong, I'm not saying its a waste of text. Just needed jazzing up.

 

Quoting Reianor3, reply 2

3. Yep, testing order and coding order don't go together on this one. I guess we have to theorycraft and speculate and hope that it all miraculously works out in the end.

4. Naaah, I like my pacing thank you very much. Current pacing is suited for differentiation.

If the action does not start until later, then the game is about using your time and resources how you see fit, and then comparing this to what your opponent did with his time and resources.

If the action starts early however, then you have to constantly look back and focus more effort on military early on. I believe this saps the whole "chose your way of progression" and "chose your preferred path to victory" thing.

That said, there's already a threat of CR-focused sovereign rush, however the Master of All things Frog-like    have stated that this is an AI issue and not a strategy issue. (gee, now that made me remember Escape from monkey island... ahh... "good times, gree frog.." err... I mean free grog...)

End of Reianor3's quote

 

I'm not saying leave it on raging barbarians, just for testing purposes. Or at least have an option which you can toggle on/off. (As I really do appreciate the challenge of building/researching against the odds of marauding hordes.. :)


Quoting Reianor3, reply 2

Now city building...

Food limits are there for a reason. - To make player think twice where he places his cities and how big (read: leveled) he wants them to be.

Resource nodes aren't landscape-integrated for another reason - that is landscape is also a gameplay element. Limiting old growth and wild hunts to forests for example would mean that there'll have to be a forest near every third "resourceful" area. And the landscape, so to speak, is subject to "sovereignoforming". I think Master of All things Frog-like previously mentioned that they (SD) don't want any aesthetic environment to confuse a real environment with.

Also I find that there's to much micro associated with town building. I'm with alh_p on this one - snaking isn't fun. It's also aesthetically displeasing. And it's really irritating to wait for one building to finish because you want to snake another one off it instead of queuing them up.

I also think that there should be more impact from resource availability. I've got a region with lots of iron? Screw it! I'll go and place my city elsewhere because 3 iron nods and something aren't worth 1 food node and err... another something. But on second thought, maybe I'm not researching enough diplomacy...

Now let us all take another look at point 3 and take a deep sigh...
End of Reianor3's quote

 

I really like the change Stardock have gone with in v.9 and the radius resource build. Much better and no more snaking. From initial play on v.9 i still believe its too easy to build a city and then pop down 5 buildings to be built without any consideration to what they give in return (i.e. no need to worry about prioritisation and available funds/resources).

 

After I've played a few more games, I'll comment more. Good signs though with the change up in v.9!