The modders will destroy me

If I could, I'd cancel the modding beta.  

I'd get shot so I won't.

The reason I'd cancel it is that I will be shamed. Terribly.

When better people get ahold of our stuff, they produce better stuff and show me for the souless engineer that I am.

My idea for the printed Hiergamenon was just to crank out a bunch of print version of XML data form the game as a reference guide.  Random House instead took the hundreds of pages of notes and short stories I had provided them months ago and crafted something brilliant. It's wonderful.

Similarly, modders will end up looking at the stuff and realizing I'm no real game designer. I'm just an engineer. I'm just an AI guy at heart. 

The spells people come up with are cool. But the crazy thing is what's possible, right now, with the tools.

People in the game industry don't usually have the luxury of talking about the sausage factory. And people outside our industry don't understand how it is nowadays.  Elemental isn't a licensed engine. It's one of the very few indie engines out there. We (you guys and us) are free to do whatever we want.

So when modding starts, please don't think less of me. I am not a real game designer like Chris Taylor or Will Wright. I'm a gamer who likes to code AI.  The limitations in our games (galciv included) are typically the result of a lack of imagination in my part.

14,302 views 30 replies
Reply #2 Top

I love your games as much for the AI as anything, Brad. I love strategy games. But after I could beat every new strategy game's AI after only 10-20 hours of play, I realized something was wrong. Gal Civ 2 was the solution.

 

You can only do so much with a small team and limited budget. Let the community suggest stuff, and the modders make stuff, and all will be well.

 

And keep up the good work!  :)

Reply #3 Top

There's a joke around the office, that Elemental's entire budget is less than the budget for Civ V's cut scenes (I love their cut scenes).

We have to do a lot with a little. The mod tools really make it apparent and help show why the game is basically done even right in beta 3 even though that'll only be obvious with the hindsight of the mod tools.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
There's a joke around the office, that Elemental's entire budget is less than the budget for Civ V's cut scenes (I love their cut scenes).

We have to do a lot with a little. The mod tools really make it apparent and help show why the game is basically done even right in beta 3 even though that'll only be obvious with the hindsight of the mod tools.
End of Frogboy's quote

Because you've had an engine built that will support a gigantic swath of game styles, so not only will there be great Dark Fantasy 40K like mods, there will be everything everyone ever wanted to create within reason.

The potential is limitless, and that's what's really heartening. (Though I still stand by the idea, that some companies out there with strong IP's could totally embrace this type of game play and engine.)

 

Looking forward to all the fun!

Reply #5 Top

But if they strike you down, you will become more powerful than they could ever imagine.

 

 

Reply #6 Top

My idea for the printed Hiergamenon was just to crank out a bunch of print version of XML data form the game as a reference guide. Random House instead took the hundreds of pages of notes and short stories I had provided them months ago and crafted something brilliant. It's wonderful.
End of quote

You know, you could include the XML reference guide too:P

Reply #7 Top

Hey, with an engine this flexible, you could even enlist modders to make new games with the engine and split the profits between you devs (who made the engine) and the modders.  Paradox Interactive did this with at least three of their new games, Magna Mundi, For the Glory, and I think Arsenal of Democracy , which all started out as mods for their respective Paradox games. 

I think what Paradox did was ingenius.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting RomanGuy, reply 7
Hey, with an engine this flexible, you could even enlist modders to make new games with the engine and split the profits between you devs (who made the engine) and the modders.  Paradox Interactive did this with at least three of their new games, Magna Mundi, For the Glory, and I think Arsenal of Democracy , which all started out as mods for their respective Paradox games. 

I think what Paradox did was ingenius.
End of RomanGuy's quote
I was actually considering this too. More with Premium modules a la Neverwinter Nights in mind but the idea is mostly the same.

I think it'd certainly encourage originality and offer a real opportunity for some people to flex...

For the record: Frogboy, I don't care if you are just an engineer. You are what you do, and you (and your team) create great games.

Reply #9 Top

If you're "just an engineer" I wish more game design hotshots were. Sure, it would be cooler still if it was possible to merge you and, say, pre-Spore Will Wright. But as it is, there aren't a whole lot of people other than you who can honestly claim to consistently make interesting, challenging and fun games. Neither (either of the) Chris Taylor(s) nor Will Wright can, for example. Don't sell yourself short, Brad.

Reply #10 Top

Hey even if you lack in that department, you do excell in creating something entirely different and stand out from the crowd! *cough* bloody FPS *cough* lightning paced RTS with no base building *cough*

Reply #11 Top

I'd much rather have "just an engineer" over the new Peter Molyneux. Fame went straight to that guy's head.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Autarkhos, reply 11
I'd much rather have "just an engineer" over the new Peter Molyneux. Fame went straight to that guy's head.
End of Autarkhos's quote
I wish Stardock were to do their own version of "The Movies". Even with all its (maaany) limitations, that has been one of my favourite games ever.

Reply #13 Top

If I could, I'd cancel the modding beta.  
So when modding starts, please don't think less of me. I am not a real game designer like Chris Taylor or Will Wright. I'm a gamer who likes to code AI.  The limitations in our games (galciv included) are typically the result of a lack of imagination in my part.
End of quote

I wouldn't worry about it too much, Chief. We can tell :P J/K

In all seriousness, I think you're probably the most personal and approachable game Developer in the Industry, Period. To me, that counts a Lot More then what I may or may not think of your "imagination". At least you'll come on here and admit that "The limitations in our games (galciv included) are typically the result of a lack of imagination in my part.". I can't name One Other Game Dev or CEO that would even DREAM of saying something like that in front of his fan base.

You Rock, Brad!!! Don't let anyone tell you different, not even me. ;)

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
We have to do a lot with a little. The mod tools really make it apparent and help show why the game is basically done even right in beta 3 even though that'll only be obvious with the hindsight of the mod tools.
End of Frogboy's quote

On a side note, the Modding Tools are my Second Motivation for having bought Elemental, because I know Stardock LOVES to let it's players Mod the hell out of your games. The first draw for me to Elemental was that it was a Fantasy Strategy Game, which there aren't very many Good Ones out there. Just the Modding Tools alone makes Elemental the BEST ONE out there.

Reply #15 Top

Your humbleness, Frog, is encouraging.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Raven, reply 14



Quoting Frogboy,
reply 3
We have to do a lot with a little. The mod tools really make it apparent and help show why the game is basically done even right in beta 3 even though that'll only be obvious with the hindsight of the mod tools.



On a side note, the Modding Tools are my Second Motivation for having bought Elemental, because I know Stardock LOVES to let it's players Mod the hell out of your games. The first draw for me to Elemental was that it was a Fantasy Strategy Game, which there aren't very many Good Ones out there. Just the Modding Tools alone makes Elemental the BEST ONE out there.
End of Raven's quote

Same here! :)

Reply #17 Top

...

When better people get ahold of our stuff, they produce better stuff and show me for the souless engineer that I am.
...
So when modding starts, please don't think less of me. I am not a real game designer like Chris Taylor or Will Wright. I'm a gamer who likes to code AI.  The limitations in our games (galciv included) are typically the result of a lack of imagination in my part.

End of quote

From an engineer to another, it's not that terrible; I don't describe me as being creative either.

Sometimes, often, the top of the art is the capability to search databases, choose what is relevant and synthesize it into a solution. It's not about complexity; as I am used to say "Simplicity leads to quickness and efficiency".

For Elemental, you're perfectly qualified since you played all those fantasy games since the 80s. Now, it's just a matter of not re-inventing the wheel but of remembering what pleased you best in each domain; ex: Taking a look at Dom3 to look for spell ideas, playing AoW2 10 minutes to have another look at the UI, look at quests in King's Bounty, ...

 

Let others have imagination! You are the guy who can enable their dreams. 

And it's powerful! :frogboy: :thumbsup:

Reply #18 Top

From one AI lover to another, I'm looking forward to tinkering with that (once I learn the game of course) as much as all the other tools.

In fact, I'm probably the same, I can't make maps and such worth squat, but my gaming buddies usually like my AI modding.

 

 

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Raven, reply 14

On a side note, the Modding Tools are my Second Motivation for having bought Elemental, because I know Stardock LOVES to let it's players Mod the hell out of your games.
End of Raven's quote

 

Ditto, and in the same order. Haven't played a fantasy TBS since AOW2 and when I heard about how customizable the game will be - that sealed it, I knew I wanted this game.

This will be my first Stardock game (well second, but I'm told Demigod isn't a Stardock game, per se) so I'm looking forward to coming under the Stardock banner. I discovered Paradox via EU3, my first foray into their games, so hopefully this discovery will be even better.

 

Reply #20 Top

If I could, I'd cancel the modding beta.  

So when modding starts, please don't think less of me. I am not a real game designer like Chris Taylor or Will Wright. I'm a gamer who likes to code AI.  The limitations in our games (galciv included) are typically the result of a lack of imagination in my part.
End of quote

 

I'm really looking forward to seeing those modding tools. A good set of modding tools will make you a god in my books, no matter how the game turns out.

Reply #21 Top

Don't put yourself down the game is Really good and the modding tools and your openness showcase how good the game is and how good of a designer you and the rest of the team are.

 

To be honest this is my most anticipated game in over 3 years.

Reply #22 Top

What hes really saying is, the Modding tools are awesome, whilst at the same time fishing for compliments.

If i didnt know better id suspect he was female :p

 

Reply #23 Top

The modding tools are good. But the main thing is that just that so much is data driven (XML based).  

In GalCiv, it was almost completely hard-coded.

 

Reply #24 Top

Sorry to get off-topic but Will Wright isn't really a game designer.  Most of the games he has made are simulators.  The only product that he's designed that I consider to be a game is Spore which is arguably the most disappointing game ever made. 

Reply #25 Top

So when modding starts, please don't think less of me. I am not a real game designer like Chris Taylor or Will Wright. I'm a gamer who likes to code AI. The limitations in our games (galciv included) are typically the result of a lack of imagination in my part.
End of quote

To your credit, you do go to great lengths to explain game mechanics in terms of backstory. Most designers don't really bother to do that. Case in point: Galactic Civilizations. The "humans inventing hyperdrive" thing really is a pretty good explanation for why all the factions start off at relative parity. And the "apocalypse" thing with Elemental helps explain why there aren't any pre-existing kingdoms/empires. Overall you do a good job making a plausible scenario even if it isn't "J.R.R. Tolkein".

Sorry to get off-topic but Will Wright isn't really a game designer.  Most of the games he has made are simulators.  The only product that he's designed that I consider to be a game is Spore which is arguably the most disappointing game ever made. 
End of quote

I like Will Wright. Simulators or games, they are fun, Sim City is part of the reason I'm into gaming at all, that was the first thing I ever "got into". Spore was a little disappointing. I'd like to pin the blame on EA's meddling, but we'll never know what happens behind closed doors.

I guess it's a good thing we see the "sausage factory", then.